Frustrated in Florida

[FLoridaGator]

My first time trying to translate japanesse isnt going so well. After hours looking online the only two characters I think I figured out are the second and third. Do they mean "Daijo"? Help, I give up.

[Veli]

Hello There!

 

I think you got the two kanji right (3rd and 4th, that is)! It seems to be 近江大掾藤原兼定 Omi Daijo Fujiwara Kanesada, Hawley KAN2068, 15 points, Shinto, Owari Shimosaka line. The kanji strokes look confident and good to my unexperienced eyes. If you compare with this, you can see the similarity yourself: http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/image/09327-3.jpg

 

It would be nice to see pictures of the hamon, sugata and boshi!

 

Oh, by the way, we are all required to sign our posts with out real names, so that we can address each other properly and also learn to know each other!

 

BR, Veli

[FLoridaGator]

Thanks! that was fast. Im not going to even try and act like I know what all that means. Can you give me a little more detail. If you havent already figured it out, I know nothing about these swords. I posted a few more pictures for you. The following is my history with the sword and what little I know.

My uncle gave me the sword twelve years ago. I stuck it in the back of my gun safe and forgot about it. I found it this weekend as I was looking for something else. I spent a good part of yesturday trying to figure out what you just told me in a couple minutes. My uncle told me my grandfather got it off a Japanesse Naval officer during the war. He said it was probably much older than the standard issue sword, probably handed down through the family. Thats about all the information he could give me.

 

Todd

[Curran]

... Fujiwara Kanesada. Veli already translated it for you. And gave you a good bit of the basic reference on him.

 

Kanesada is the smith's professional name and everything before that is honorific title- pretty standard.

When he said the signature looks good, he meant that Nihonto often have false signatures or forgeries just like the painting world. Initial reaction is yours looks okay. He even linked you to one in Japan that is probably papered (authenticated by a respected Japanese Org.) as being correct.

 

FYI. One of the big two or three sword shows each year is held in Tampa at the Tampa airport. If you remember next February, you should attend for a day.

Otherwise, if you are down in Sarasota one day- bring the sword and we will give you a crash course in knowing what it is and caring for it.

 

Curran

Sarasota, FL

[FLoridaGator]

Thanks for the information Curran. What does 15 points mean? How much is this sword worth?

 

Todd

[Curran]

Hawley created an English index listing many many smiths with period, place of work, and how he think they signed. Most of his work was done in the 1960s and re-editioned through the 1980s.

He used a relative point score for 'worth'. Yours has a point score of '15' according to Veli. I don't know which edition of Hawley's he was using.

 

The scale was hardly scientific. The most famous names were given scores like 400 or 500, with a few most famous names of which 0 or 1 works are known to exist were given 750 or 1000. (Guys, don't kill me on this since I don't use Hawleys and am going from memory from the last time I cracked my 1st Ed 1966 version open). Between editions (1*), 2, 3, and 4 I think pointscores changed a bit.

 

15 isn't a 100, but it ain't a 5. Given it is Owari Shimosaka, probably 200 to 300 years old. I know more about Echizen Shimosaka. Good working blades. Sometimes nice tight grain if in full polish. Rarely do I see a grain opening flaw on them.

 

Price/ Value ? I don't know. I focus mostly on fittings nowadays. Probably $800 to $2000 depending on condition, but you'd do much better to ask the guys here in the Nihonto section of the forum- though please understand there is *always* someone walking in asking "whats this worth", with no actual interest in the sword. Your relative brought back a decent one. Not a national treasure, but not a war time manufacture oil quenched machete.

 

Curran

[cspage]

...and, since you're new to the Board and apparently nihonto, Todd, the standard advice must be stated...don't do anything to the sword or fittings without prior consultation with experts. Do not muck about with the sword or you may lose whatever value it may have. Keep it as is until someone with experience has a chance to see it. Just a small bit of friendly advice. It looks good. Good luck and Lucky You!

 

Colin

[Veli]

Hello Todd,

 

My apologies, seems that I made a mistake. I rechecked the smith and seems that he is not HAW KAN2068, but probably one of HAW KAN2027, KAN2029, KAN2030, who also sometimes signed with exactly the same title and name. An oshigata of the 5th generation (HAW 2030) was found in Fujishiro's: He is a 50 points smith from Iwashiro province, active 1688-1711. Please see attachment. I leave it to more experienced NMB members to comment whether the signature looks authentic. (My personal opinion that is not reliable: It is close to the reference, but not a perfect match. Might be different generation, but same lineage.)

 

In any case this is a katana worthy of care, appreciation and preservation! As for the price, you can look at the AOI art wakizashi. http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/09327.htmlPlease remember, however, that papers are guaranteed and it is in a very good polish and condition. May also be different generation.

 

 

 

BR, Veli

[Stephen]

Veli

do you have Fujishiros rating it may give a better rank to where he stands.

[FLoridaGator]

Everyone, thank you for the information.

Veli, How do I determine for sure the signature is authintic? I am still a little confused about the point system. Is 50 points good? Where can I find more information?

Colin, I will defininetly leave the sword alone until I decide what I am going to do with it. Treasure hunting is a hobby of mine. A few years ago, I found a cache of coins and devalued them considerably by trying to clean them.

Curran, my family has a house on Long Boat Key. My wife and I stay there atleast one weekend a month. I'll let you know when we plan our next trip. I would like to show you the sword and learn more. I am trying to determine the value of the sword because I may want to sell or trade it, I havent decided. I have most of the old guns in my collection isnsured. If I decide to keep it and it is of substantial value I would want to insure it.

Now that I have information on the signature, Should I repost the pictures in the general discussion for more information?

 

Todd

[Stephen]

got out my english translation for Fujishiro

 

hes rated Chujosaku

[FLoridaGator]

Thank you Stephen. Is this a good rating?

 

Todd

[Stephen]

starting at the highest its Saijosaku" "JoJosaku" Josaku" "Chujiosaku" "Chusaku"

 

so its second up from the lowest rank. which does not make it bad just a sound smith. Is the hamon suguba?

 

Id think about talking to someone about repatina the tsuba, unless all the bright is flash.

[FLoridaGator]

I think most of the bright is flash and reflection from the lights. I will take a picture outside in natural light tomorrow and post it. Should the patina be glossy? The following are some measurments. I think I understood the measurment diagram but let me know if something seems off.

 

Nagassa 26 inches / 66.04 cm

Nakago 8.78 in / 22.3 cm

Kissaki 1.25 in / 3.18 cm

Sori .78 in / 1.98 cm

[Veli]

Hi Todd!

 

Let us say that finding a katana by a Hawley 50 points/Fujishiro Chu-Jo saku level smith in you gun safe is a lucky incident indeed. That kind of swords are very decent collector pieces, though not really treasures.

 

Defining the authenticity of the kanji is a tricky thing, and I am not an expert. But let's see the second to last kanji, "Kane". Compare the lowest strokes of that kanji to the Fujishiro example, and you see that they are positioned differently and of different length. On the other hand, the first kanji looks like a photocopy of that in Fujishiro's...

Somehow, the chisel strokes are confident, and their smooth curves resemble closely those in the reference. Thus my comment that the signature is by someone of the same lineage as the smith who signed the reference. BUT I AM ONLY A BEGINNER, PLEASE DO NOT FORM YOUR FINAL OPINION BASED ON MY HUMBLE EFFORTS.

 

A good idea is to show this to an experienced collector. Do visit Curran if you have the chance.

 

Submitting to shinsa is the only sure way to know whether the signature is authentic.

 

Very nice find, in any case!

 

BR, Veli