Some help with a KO-wakizashi

[nihonto_1]

 

 

Good day people.

So I picked this up last week, and my does it sparkle. 

From a little glance I thought it would be Sue‑Bizen, the hamon and hada seemed to tick the boxes.

But the grain is a lot more tatsu/open than my 1580‑ish wakizashi.

 

Also for its size it’s got a rather large kissaki.

 

Um the tang – so this was a blind buy, I liked the hada (also wanted a shirasaya to examine and another habaki) – no images of the tang were provided…..

Has this been cleaned or is it a newer blade shin‑to/shinshinto?

 

Here are some sizes –

Weight – 330g

Nagasa – 34.4cm

Nakago – 12cm

Sori – 9mm

Kissaki – 4.2cm

Kasane @ mune‑muchi 6.65mm / mihaba 29.9mm

Kasane @ yokote – 5.75mm / mihaba 21.95mm

And please correct if this is wrong but –

Hada – Itame‑hada mixed with mokume‑hada

Hamon – Gunome‑midare

Boshi – Midare‑komi with kaeri

 

appreciate any thoughts -

Will.

[nihonto_1]

[nihonto_1]

[nihonto_1]

[nihonto_1]

hmmmmmmm - 

ok very overlit making it seem alot more red in colour

[nihonto_1]

[nihonto_1]

if i feed all the above into the internet it is suggesting

Shintoshinto  Bizen-revival - possibly Yokoyama line or Ishido. 

 

after poking it (the internet), and going around in circles has produced a list of smiths  -now to start looking for some reference images to see if i can narrow anything down

 

 

[Nukitsuke]

That's some pretty uneven oxidation on the nakago (I don't know that I've ever encountered something like that before)... 

The dimensions, and the jigane don't strike me as being shinshinto at all... I haven't seen every blade on the planet, but I haven't encountered any shinshinto works with Jigane like that and even if I did, the sugata coupled with everything else still kind of screams koto to me...There's also the weight, usually shinshinto works might be on the heavier side (broad brushstroke here)... All things considered, I'd lean toward muromachi-ish personally, and would love to read other responses to further inform my opinions because I don't get to see too much of these kind of things at my study group... They tend to be pretty clinical.

 

I'm not saying specifically that your sword has had some altering/cleaning of the nakago, but It might be worth checking any references you can find on "Nakago Cleaning" to compare examples and get more insight to rule this out. If you can confirm that the nakago has been cleaned, it may help you to get a more accurate range of the time period production date range even though that may still be challenging. 

 

Congratulations on your pick-up!

 

-Mitchell

[Nukitsuke]

6 hours ago, nihonto_1 said:

if i feed all the above into the internet it is suggesting

Shintoshinto  Bizen-revival - possibly Yokoyama line or Ishido. 

 

A Yokoyama attribution during shinshinto period sounds so wild to me... Are you using an AI assistant or agent for the guidance? If so, which one?

If the internet is right, it's going to shatter what little confidence I had left in Kantei... lol Not that I had much to begin with lol.

 

-Mitchell

[nihonto_1]

So - when i collected it, when i 1st removed from the shirasaya the sparkling along the blade was amazing - but could not check the Tang until i got home -

My first impression was it looks like it had been cleaned somehow (ahhh)  - but i do not have enough knowledge to be able to tell. Yes my plan was to start looking at cleaned tangs - to try and see some similar corrosion.

[nihonto_1]

@Nukitsuke

so my original thoughts Koto - maybe Sue-Bizen (based on my limited hands on knowledge)

but i do like to cross ref with different ai agents - Very hard to pick the truth from them though - the above was from co-pilot / gemini gave similar - interestingly chatgpt came out with Koto possibly shinto but favouring Koto

 

the thing is AI is re-affirming, so if you say' is this a cleaned tang' it would agree - if you dont mention it - Ai see's aged tang - i have had many many arguments between 3 or 4 agents until i kind of give up (coding/electronics etc etc)

 

just feeding in the images and blade data to the same ai can also produce different results.

[nihonto_1]

but i will favour the least beneficial answer  - until i have more information. Never good to trust Ai or get ones emotions raised.

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, nihonto_1 said:

So - when i collected it, when i 1st removed from the shirasaya the sparkling along the blade was amazing - but could not check the Tang until i got home -

My first impression was it looks like it had been cleaned somehow (ahhh)  - but i do not have enough knowledge to be able to tell. Yes my plan was to start looking at cleaned tangs - to try and see some similar corrosion.

 

Will, an alternative explanation is to turn this on its head and explore whether it's a newer tang that has suffered some corrosion in certain areas - it seems odd to partially clean a tang and the yasurimei are still clearly visible, though I would normally expect a shinshinto blade to be signed (though some aren't).  

 

The elongated kissaki could point to Keicho shinto or shinshinto time periods. The prominent hada suggests something older than shinshinto to me and I wonder whether given the hadatatsu, nakagojiri and a hint of togariba whether there isn't some Mino influence? 

 

Also, and it might only be the way the photos are displaying on my screen but am I seeing yakidashi there? It looks like there might be something on the right hand photo of the whole blade but maybe not...

 

Anyway some things to consider in respect of a really nice acquisition. 

 

[oli]

Hi Will,

 

the pictures aren't the best. I would say Shinto, because of the Sugata and also seems it don't had so many polishing. The rest looks like Mino-den for me. 

 

Regards

Oli

[nihonto_1]

50 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Also, and it might only be the way the photos are displaying on my screen but am I seeing yakidashi there? It looks like there might be something on the right hand photo of the whole blade but maybe not...

@Shugyosha I am new to yakidashi....are you referring to where the hamon terminates

 

[Shugyosha]

Yes, it's where the hamon tails off in the portion of the blade nearest the hamachi and comes in various flavours depending on where the blade was made. Looking at the photos just above it looks like there's some hadori covering the actual line of the hamon which might be dropping into yakidashi and this is generally a pointer towards shinto or later blades. 

 

Some info towards the bottom of this article:

 

https://markussesko.com/2015/05/29/kantei-3-hamon-boshi-1/

[Nukitsuke]

After sleeping on this, I remembered a while back, I saw a couple Kanemichi blades that were Koto, but the precursor to the Shinto and Keicho shapes... There were some similarities to the sugata (but not quite enough for me to be anywhere near confident). The mino influences referenced in this thread could be evidence that this might have been made during some of the "kyoto gokaji experimental production phases..." But my gut tells me it might be a little bit earlier due to the weight, sugata, jigane, lack of signature (suggesting it was a utilitarian blade)...  I think I'm sticking with later Muromachi era as my guess.

 

 

I know there was some talk about the kissaki being suggestive of something newer, but here's an example of a katana with elongated kissaki, mino, late-muromachi-era for reference.

 

I'll check back in a few days to see how this is coming along, exciting!

 

-Mitchell

 

 

[Rivkin]

As strange as it sounds, even this type of rough jigane looks shinto to me. It has Mino-esque hamon with a few gunome-togari without any notion of periodicity, I suspect Osaka or more likely Edo type yakidashi. There is no choji or suguha work here of Yokoyama style.

[Geraint]

Dear Will.

 

May I suggest that you contact the To-Ken Society of Great Britain?  You are within reach of the meetings in London and could show your sword to some very knowledgable people there.  Here is the link:  https://to-ken.uk/

 

Failing that there may be some of our members quite near you who might be willing to take a look.

 

All the best.

[nihonto_1]

57 minutes ago, Geraint said:

May I suggest that you contact the To-Ken Society of Great Britain?  You are within reach of the meetings in London and could show your sword to some very knowledgable people there.  Here is the link:  https://to-ken.uk/

 

@Geraint thank you. Yes I am a member and will be taking it along to the next meeting (if timings allow)

 

Currently going around in circles a little looking at mino / shinto mino, and senjuin mino (very close hada it seems and maybe a few similar hamon)

 

Still researching. Plus the article John posted, that's taking a few reads to semi digest.

 

My stumbling block is the tang, I just feel that a blade with these quite perfect details would have been signed in later periods.

 

The sizes etc align well with something earlier, maybe for armour piercing (weight and it's general thickness), but maybe that's just a revival geometry....

[Matsunoki]

Yakidashi suggests Shinto or later.

Hada looks quite coarse…..you mention “sparkle”….can you elaborate? Is it nie that you see or perhaps just reflections from a coarse surface? That sort of hada reminds me of a similar wak (Shinto mino) that I had eons ago. When Kenji Mishina saw it he said “that is not real hada”……the explanation involved impurities in the steel but I did not press for further elaboration . (I was a young beginner speaking to a master polisher) (now I’m just an old beginner)

Wakizashi we’re not really made for armour piercing.

[ROKUJURO]

23 hours ago, nihonto_1 said:

....are you referring to where the hamon terminates?....

No, where the HAMON starts (above the HAMACHI).

[nihonto_1]

15 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Hada looks quite coarse…..you mention “sparkle”….can you elaborate

Hi Colin, I believe most of the 'sparkle' is most likely from the rough surface/hada grain, but when you tilt the blade back and forth in sunlight there other more crystaline sparkles, it's hard to say if those are tiny tiny scratches catching the light, or nie but it does produce a little glitter effect.

 

I will see if I can make a video

 

Thank you for your thoughts, still reading about yakidashi.

 

Also Kenji Mishina, very interesting description. Too flashy/showy? 

 

 

Noted on the armour piercing capabilities.

 

Some observations which we're making me feel this was a more experienced smith (from the point of view of somebody with little experience), the matched hamon - to me the symmetry seems very good (is this a good thing, to me aesthetically it seems good). The hada, the way a burl combines with the boshi - seems like that would take some practicing. 

 

W

[Nukitsuke]

I've been scouring my university library for references to post here and I don't have much that's useful... What I have learned is that the term yakidashi is used to refer to shinto works and shinshinto made shinto copies, there's apparently some evidence documented in previous nihon bijutsu issues that describe yakidashi-like effects in Koto blades but they don't actually call it yakidashi... The say it's "yakidashi-like," because the term is only used for shinto and later shinto copy blades or something (if someone has any information to contradict this, please share).

Apparently in shinto works the yakidashi is more symmetrical, vs sue koto blades where there are noticeable differences in symmetry on the omote and ura in more of an organic way... Your blade looks like it has asymmetrical effects like yakidashi but one of the photos makes it slightly more difficult to tell based off the angle... Does it look different on both sides @nihonto_1?

Regarding the examples of this published in token bijutsu special issues, special issue number 50 has some examples of hamon affects (in muromachi blades surprisingly enough) that are described as "直刃調の焼出し( a straight tempered beginning line part) 様の部分を経て乱れに入る" - 

 

going through a suguha, yakidashi-like portion, it (the hamon) enters or into a irregular pattern (Midare)... So, yeah, yakidashi usually points to shinto blades/later as indicated by kokan nagayama, but there are documented exceptions to this seen in koto blades...

 

LOL At this point I'd say "The sword is maybe, definitely, kinda old for sure, most likely, probably, unless it's not" 
 

[nihonto_1]

53 minutes ago, Nukitsuke said:

LOL At this point I'd say "The sword is maybe, definitely, kinda old for sure, most likely, probably, unless it's not" 

Ha, yes that's the circle I am in. 

Thank you for all the info above, give me a while to digest,.and appreciate the time you have put in.

I shall check the yakidashi when back home, my memory is saying not completely symmetrical.

 

I guess as mentioned before, maybe it is newer just based on the tang oxidisation.

 

 

Also I am guessing yakidashi was not a sudden change but something that evolved over several decades, centuries.

[nihonto_1]

@Matsunoki Hi Colin - there are a couple of video on this link - kind of looks like lots of mini scratches + rough grain.

https://1drv.ms/f/c/795d76c18ed24c8d/IgDA1BLQ5fGfSJKtoOqUHCWRAUwIcwJWTBdTBwncyT3Jpqg?e=KNwcCA

 

@Nukitsukewell i would say fairly symmetrical in lengh - on the Ura  it seems maybe 4mm high up of so 

But while trying to look at this i started seeing this straight line in the hamon - any info on that would be great - i have put a video trying to show one from the other here

https://1drv.ms/f/c/795d76c18ed24c8d/IgBcDfj7MeQsToZvblaGM1hQAewNFlNaz7nMg7x82VbzUbg?e=tS5qMc

diagram photo attached.

 

I have also put all the other photos on a link here - just in case resolution is better

https://1drv.ms/f/c/795d76c18ed24c8d/IgAa79cHXJkrT7n8tJEaECZlAZJoQZ5OTg69QgycetO7ljE?e=0hIxeQ

 

thanks

w

[Matsunoki]

Sadly I don’t think your sparkle is ji-nie. Imo it’s a combination of coarse hada and many many fine scratches that catch the light. (Great vids by the way!)

Your green straight line is not the hamon. It is a surface polishing finish called Kesho or Hadori where a special  stone paste is used to whiten the hamon. If done sloppily it often appears as a straight line that ignores the actual shape of the hamon. If done correctly (which takes a lot more time and skill) it will follow the outline of the real hamon.

Yours looks like a “quick jobbie” to me.

Just my opinion, but this is  not a koto blade.

Late Shinto or Shinshinto would be my bet….of modest quality.

 

 

[Nukitsuke]

5 hours ago, nihonto_1 said:

I have also put all the other photos on a link here - just in case resolution is better

https://1drv.ms/f/c/795d76c18ed24c8d/IgAa79cHXJkrT7n8tJEaECZlAZJoQZ5OTg69QgycetO7ljE?e=0hIxeQ

 

These help!.. They also confuse me a bit more... Hahah, at this point, I'm so curious to know who might have made this in the late edo period, deciding not to sign it (if it's shinshinto)... lol Jigane in the later edo periods usually doesn't look so... Alive?

 

Anyway, this has been fun, and I definitely learned some things! Best of luck to you!

[nihonto_1]

Thank you Colin and Mitchell. 

I have learned a lot, which I shall probably forget and have to read about many times.

 

Over the last few days I have been looking at a few shinshinto tangs, I have found a few that bare a resemblance to mine in file marks and patina.....not hamon though.