Buying Nihonto from Japan

[jono1uk]

I live in the United Kingdom and I’m looking into purchasing a Katana and Wakizashi  from Japan and have been looking on the NihontoWatch site.

how easy is it to deal with dealers and order what is required?

What is the process do I just send them an email with their relevant stock number?

I have only ever purchased one item before from Japan and that was on eBay.

TIA 

 

Jon

[Tsuba gardener]

Hi Jono, 

 

I don't have experience with nihonto but I do with fittings and jitte (edo period police batons). The issue I've experienced is that of incourier customs, (in otherwords the courier deals with customs processing rather than HMRC as a separate team). I do know there has been recent changes to legislation. AOI Art Japan has information on their website.

 

I've had longer delays mainly due to needing to provide accurate details of age and materials. I once purchased a job lot of kozuka (knife handles without blades) from an abroad auction and customs held them back temporarily because they thought they contained blades.  Commodity codes are also required but if the dealer is experienced they should take most of the pressure. 

 

I personally would consider 3rd party dealers in the UK such as the Japanese Gallery, Kensington, London (I have no affiliation with them). They hold regular online auctions. Another is the Lanes Armoury in Brighton (again no affiliation) but its best to visit rather than buy online. 

 

Neil

[Takezo]

Yeah, just go to their site and follow their directions for ordering

[jono1uk]

18 minutes ago, Takezo said:

Yeah, just go to their site and follow their directions for ordering

Do they understand English?

their websites are all in Japanese.

Edited Sunday at 08:09 PM by jono1uk

[Nukitsuke]

As a general answer, I'd say purchasing from Japanese dealers is pretty easy despite some of the language barriers if your Japanese isn't strong. Out of curiosity, are you looking into a specific dealer site? If so which one?

 

 

-Mitchell

[Shugyosha]

9 hours ago, jono1uk said:

Do they understand English?

their websites are all in Japanese.

 

Hi Jon,

Naturally it varies. I've had no problem in dealing with Aoi Art (be a little wary as they are high volume and so descriptions can be a off or sometimes "creative"), Sanmei and Touken Matsumoto in the past but I didn't get beyond the need to order, pay and track the delivery. I understand that Touken Komachi have good English as well as French...

 

If it's a significant purchase you might want to see if Paul Martin would act as an intermediary - it used to be a service he provided. https://thejapanesesword.com/

 

Alternatively, or in addition, have you joined the Token Society of Great Britain? If you're fairly new to Japanese swords you can't beat seeing some in the flesh which will boost your learning and members frequently sell items so you might find something suitable without the need to go through the importation process and you could probably evaluate them in the hand as opposed to from pictures which can get tidied up to minimise flaws etc. 

 

Welcome to NMB and good hunting!

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Jon, you need to do some research regarding the serious problems that now exist re importing swords (or any bladed item) into the UK…..whether antique or not.
Most shippers including Parcelforce have a total ban on all blades and you risk the item being confiscated or returned to the seller which can cause even further issues. 
These bans apply to both importing and then subsequent shipping within the UK.

There are several discussions re this on here. 
Have a root around.

 

 

[jono1uk]

8 hours ago, Nukitsuke said:

As a general answer, I'd say purchasing from Japanese dealers is pretty easy despite some of the language barriers if your Japanese isn't strong. Out of curiosity, are you looking into a specific dealer site? If so which one?

 

 

-Mitchell

Hi Mitchell 

 

I am just doing my research at the moment and was looking at recommendations for favoured ones amongst you.

I will off course ensure it has least a Hozon.

looking at paying around 2k for a Katana  .. not looked at Wakizashi prices yet.

@Matsunoki I have lurked on here for years so am aware  it may be UPS etc who will deliver.

Are all the dealers aware of our delivery restrictions so they can route in the correct direction? 

 

 

[Brian]

Why go to the trouble of importing into the UK around that value when you will likely get a very mediocre sword for that price, pay a fortune for shipping and then maube even pay vat/duties or clearing? You can likely find better deals within the UK. At the higher level I can understand, but 2K (GBP?) doesn't get you much in Japan.

[Matsunoki]

I think UPS have stopped shipping swords now. That is discussed somewhere recently on this forum so I guess you saw it?

What Brian says is correct….at that price point you will find decent swords over here without any of the hassle and import duties etc. Ever been to the Birmingham Arms Fair? You will be able to actually handle pieces rather than take chance buying from images that won’t tell you everything and might even hide some nasties.( I do have an affiliation with the Birmingham Fair🙂)

Still, if you like gambling and sleepless nights……

 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

If you're intent on importing, you could also put out some feelers with the American and Canadian dealers to see if that yields any results at your price point. That would at least remove the language issue and I can recommend Ray Singer and Grey Doffin.

[Nukitsuke]

Oh cool, that's actually helpful! So at that price point I would probably recommend a dealer like Aoi-Japan (there are several others mentioned here that have decent reputations as well, e-sword, toukenkomachi, toukenhataya, etc...).  Brian is right, 2k doesn't go far, but with the conversion rates you may be able to stretch it to get a fairly healthy lesser smith or a mumei suriage blade (I can't speak to the additional fees).  Just based on the budget, I'd probably suggest things like Mino, mass produced sukesada, perhaps takada or shimohara blades as a great place to start...  There are other options so this isn't necessarily an exhaustive list, but I normally see lesser works associated with these schools/smiths around this price point. Something worth thinking about though, you may reach a point within you studies, that you no longer want to hold on to a sword from one of these smiths/schools, so just be mindful it may be difficult to get rid of without losing some of what you paid initially as most people generally want what some would consider to be "better" swords.

Some things worth considering, and I know everyone has opinions, but the utility of my experience would lead me to tell you that the 2k you're thinking about spending might be better spent on reference materials if you can find them... I might buy books make the research process a bit easier (books have a tendency to be a bit easier to flip if/when you need to in my experience as well).  Additionally, you might be able to stretch that 2k further simply connecting with members on the forum (not that I want to speak for everyone), or collectors in your community to get something affordable that you can grow into and learn from. In my experience, relationships are really important to make better acquisitions, so always keep this in mind. For a starter sword, coming from a student of nihonto, getting something you can grow into and learn from is a great thing to aim for!
 

Lastly, one of my mentors used to tell me that swords have a tendency to find their owners... As much as we go out of the way to help ourselves or prompt a purchase, I think he's right... May luck be on your side so that you can get something that you want!  

-Mitchell 

[jono1uk]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Why go to the trouble of importing into the UK around that value when you will likely get a very mediocre sword for that price, pay a fortune for shipping and then maube even pay vat/duties or clearing? You can likely find better deals within the UK. At the higher level I can understand, but 2K (GBP?) doesn't get you much in Japan.

Hi Brian
 

Obviously, without me looking at the sword in person, I can’t see all the intricate details looking on the website I mentioned there are plenty around the 2000 pound Mark and they are not the cheapest there are some well under that and the ones that I’m looking at have the NBTHK papers. 
With regards to import duty and VAT there is no import duty on anything over 100 years old and VAT is 5%. 
Before any purchases made, I will be having email conversations with the seller regarding any flaws that cannot be seen in the pictures.

hasn’t looked at every dealers website because there are many some of them have their listings in English and explain in detail any rust spots, etc., on the sword to manage expectations.

[jono1uk]

This is just a typical blade I have found for just over 2000 pounds 

 

https://shop.nihontou.jp/products/detail/31527#gallery-1

 

Edited Monday at 02:14 PM by jono1uk

[The Blacksmith]

Also remember that many dealers and auction houses in Japan won't send to the UK at all now.

[jono1uk]

Thank you guys so far for all your super helpful advice  ..apart from the Birmingham Fair what places in the UK can people recomend please?

The only reason i  went for the Japanese import route was because of my low budget and looking at Lanes Armoury .you dont get a much for 2K  

Edited Monday at 02:37 PM by jono1uk

[Lewis B]

6 minutes ago, jono1uk said:

Thank you guys so far for all your super helpful advice  ..apart from the Birmingham Fair what places in the UK can people recomend please?

The only reason i  went for the Japanese import route was because of my low budget and looking at Lanes Armoury .you dont get a much for 2K  

This was a recent auction in London. Several items remin unsold at around your budget. Buyers premium is extra but most have recent NBTHK papers and appear to be in good polish with extras like koshirae.

 

https://www.jgauction.com/auction/261-fine-Japanese-art/

 

You could approach the auction house and see if a deal can be done on Lot 6. No harm in asking. 

[jono1uk]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I think UPS have stopped shipping swords now. That is discussed somewhere recently on this forum so I guess you saw it?

What Brian says is correct….at that price point you will find decent swords over here without any of the hassle and import duties etc. Ever been to the Birmingham Arms Fair? You will be able to actually handle pieces rather than take chance buying from images that won’t tell you everything and might even hide some nasties.( I do have an affiliation with the Birmingham Fair🙂)

Still, if you like gambling and sleeples

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:44 PM by jono1uk

[jono1uk]

from the UPS Website..

 

Bladed products: It is forbidden to sell and deliver bladed products at a UK residential address without verifying that the recipients are over 18 years of age.

So not banned if you can verify age on delivery.

[jono1uk]

Looking at a Chinese sword suppliers in the UK ..they all appear to be using UPS .. 

[Matsunoki]

OK, give it a whirl but make sure the dealer in Japan uses the correct UPS delivery service. 
Do UPS use their own customs staff/facility in the UK or does it go through our UK Customs/Border Force system?….because that can be a real nightmare….speaking from multiple personal experiences in the last couple of years. One member on here recently had his swords confiscated by customs but I  can’t remember the shipper. 
No matter what the shipping docs (even with the correct code) say you best be prepared to be charged 20%. Sometimes I don’t think they even read the docs, they just look at the value…..and proving the age is another ballgame altogether. 
Anyway, if you go into it with open eyes you won’t be surprised. Good luck!

 

[jono1uk]

31 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

OK, give it a whirl but make sure the dealer in Japan uses the correct UPS delivery service. 
Do UPS use their own customs staff/facility in the UK or does it go through our UK Customs/Border Force system?….because that can be a real nightmare….speaking from multiple personal experiences in the last couple of years. One member on here recently had his swords confiscated by customs but I  can’t remember the shipper. 
No matter what the shipping docs (even with the correct code) say you best be prepared to be charged 20%. Sometimes I don’t think they even read the docs, they just look at the value…..and proving the age is another ballgame altogether. 
Anyway, if you go into it with open eyes you won’t be surprised. Good luck!
 

I am fully open to buying one from a UK source but at my budget they are scarce  .. the reason I referenced UPS I thought it might help people on here.                                                    

 

 

[Mark C]

Hi Jon,

 

If you ever get round to visiting the Birmingham Arms fair at the Motorcycle museum, there is a trader that stalls and has many nice swords, mostly with papers.

 

I would rather pay 20% more on a sword already in the UK rather than taking lots of risk and giving the Government 20% in tax.

 

Regards

[Shugyosha]

Hi Jon,

The next one is 20th September so if you’re not rushing…

[jono1uk]

2 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Jon,

The next one is 20th September so if you’re not rushing…

Thanks certainly not rushing .. still doing research  ..  how many times a year is the fair? 

And I know his stock may change but is he likely to have around my budget + maybe 20% ish.

[jono1uk]

11 minutes ago, Mark C said:

Hi Jon,

 

If you ever get round to visiting the Birmingham Arms fair at the Motorcycle museum, there is a trader that stalls and has many nice swords, mostly with papers.

 

I would rather pay 20% more on a sword already in the UK rather than taking lots of risk and giving the Government 20% in tax.

 

Regards

Does this Dealer have a website?

 

Regards 

 

Jono

[Mark C]

I'm not sure if he has.

 

His name is Igor and he is the Secretary of the Token Society of Great Britain.

 

Regards

[jono1uk]

6 minutes ago, Mark C said:

I'm not sure if he has.

 

His name is Igor and he is the Secretary of the Token Society of Great Britain.

 

Regards

Cool 

.That is something that I have yet to join. but need to.

If someone has Igor's email address please I would be grateful.

 

Regards

 

Jon  

[jono1uk]

ignore last ..have found it  .

[Mark C]

All on the Token Society of Great Britain website

 

https://to-ken.uk