Shippo pattern or star maps?

[FlorianB]

Dan,

If You want to see constellations in this rudimentary pattern, You have every right to do so.

 

You made Your position clear but repeating Your speculation again and again doesn’t turn it into facts.

 

At least there are no proofs, just a certain similarity to constellations and it works only if parts of the pattern are omitted. Not very convincing.

 

I have hinted to old star maps, the way people interpreted the stars at this time without modern astronomy or telescopes.

 

We have seen examples of how constellations are depicted in Japanese art: big dots connected with thin lines.
But here are small dots connected with konvex openings, a result of overlapping circles – the real base of this particular pattern.

 

With all due respect – I can see no sense in harping on Your theory without solid evidence.

Edited July 7 by FlorianB

[Bugyotsuji]

Just for reference here is a Netsuke made from baleen.

 

Backside with a Southern Cross?

 

Front with a dipper?

But everything changes when

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Piers,

Nice Netsuke.

So do you think that these holes filled in with a gold colored metal can also be stars?

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Well I answered that question already on the first page. 

 

Remember that some (combinations of) numbers were auspicious, particularly seven, the number of stars in the Little Dipper. 
Also nine, as in the nine-star Kuyōmon, which actually represents seven visible stars plus two ‘dark’ stars, the existence of which astrologers and thus everyone believed in.

 

Stars were represented like that with brass, yes, and on a Kurogane background it does increase such a perception.

If it is the Little Dipper, it seems that one rice shaped opening is in the wrong place…(?)

 

 

[Scogg]

Do you hear how all this sounds?

 

You'd like us to entertain the idea that generations of Japanese craftsmen, collectors, historians, scholars, and the NBTHK all overlooked these hidden meanings and misidentified these motifs. Until the 21st century, when a western collector on an internet forum arrived with a unique talent for comparing patterns no one else thought belonged together, and suddenly centuries of unanswered questions were both invented and solved overnight. The same idea applies to your edo period casting thread.

 

I don't know, Dan. Presenting your hypotheses alongside pictures is not the same as presenting evidence. Saying "just my opinion" doesn't place those ideas beyond scrutiny or remove the burden of supporting them.
 

It all strikes me as extraordinarily presumptuous; to think that you're the puzzlemaster deciding that all these puzzles have missing pieces, just waiting for you to fill.

"Onward" gets us nowhere if we're just walking in circles. I've taken my fair share of laps around this same circle, and I think I'm tired out.

-Sam

[Baka Gaijin]

https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/28-moon-stations.html

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Don’t you have anything a little more comprehensive, our man Malcolm?

[Baka Gaijin]

This should help: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiba_Shrine

 

The idea being point your sword to the north star and achieve invincibility.

[Bugyotsuji]

That’s now as clear as mud. These links seem to be mixing the big and little dippers, but mariners use the handle of the little one for pointing out Myōken the North or Pole Star. Right?

七曜印

 

Anyway he’s my new friend as his familiar is Genbu, the great tortoise with ears, and we’re old pals already.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

First off, thanks Baka Gaijin (Malcolm ) for that link to some great information about the history that the stars played in ancient China and Japan. 

 

Now to Scogg (Sam), 

 

Thanks for that great compliment of “puzzlemaster”.  I really like that! 

 

At least I have a Zen mind, beginner’s mind. 

 

In other words, you can only add tea to a teacup that is not already full. 

 

Just like you can only add new information to a mind that is not already full. 

 

Anyway this “puzzlemaster” is at it again! 

 

I think I found a Japanese constellation that is fairly close in comparison to a constellation at the top of a star map type tsuba. 

 

I have included a picture of that old star chart map with its caption. 

 

Then I included a close-up picture of a constellation (circled in blue) that I located on that map, and it is a pretty close match to a constellation shown on a tsuba. 

 

Then again, I have included a picture of a star map type tsuba that I think has that very close match to the constellation shown on the map (the constellation at the top of the tsuba). 

 

Yes, I think the tsuba constellation may show one more star than the map.  But hey, there are a lot of stars up there to add to any constellation! 

 

Onward (from the puzzlemaster !). 

[Bugyotsuji]

Random strands of DNA…(?)

[Dan tsuba]

"Random strands of DNA…(?)".  Ha, ha, ha, ha, Piers!

 

Nope, I don't think so! 

[Baka Gaijin]

"That’s now as clear as mud. These links seem to be mixing the big and little dippers, but mariners use the handle of the little one for pointing out Myōken the North or Pole Star. Right?"

七曜印 

 

OK Old Bean,

 

Draw your Sword, throw the Saya away quoting the following from the Hōjōki 方丈記:

 

"ゆく河の流れは絶えずして、しかももとの水にあらず!"

 

Now Spit Shichiken Hakushin Junmai Daiginjo over the Tsuka.

 

Look up into the Dark void, point the Kissaki at the bottom star of the righthand side of the dipper bowl (Merak), shooting through the top star (Dubhe), and extending upward into the dark sky and you are good to go to the Myōken.

 

 

If however it is cloudy, you may drown your sorrows in the remaining Shichiken Hakushin Junmai Daiginjo. and leave rapidly, as your Invincibilty will be somewhat compromised by GPS toting Shinobi who are not adherants of the Myōken

Edited Tuesday at 05:28 PM by Baka Gaijin

[Matsunoki]

Erm…….?

Have we entered an alternative universe?

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Colin!

I really like and have quoted (in more than one post on this thread) a part of your post from page 1-

 

"Warning……rabbit hole approaching!….or maybe a black hole?

Engage maximum reverse warp."

 

As on some other forums I belong to (for some of my other hobbies), some people don't know really that much about the subject in the thread and they try to derail or divert the thread to another subject.

 

They failed to "Engage maximum reverse warp"! 

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Too late. It’s an event horizon looming.

 

[Dan tsuba]

Colin-

Well stated and I agree!

Hey another good statement of yours that I may quote later on.

Well done!

[Dan tsuba]

Florian,

 

In your post at the top of this page (page 3) you stated "With all due respect – I can see no sense in harping on Your theory without solid evidence."

 

Well, if you refer to my post above showing an old Japanese star chart with a constellation almost identical (or exactly identiclal-depending on how you interpret it) compared to a star map tsuba (that I also showed a picture of) what more solid evidence do you need?

 

Let me know, and I will see if I can find the evidence that will convince you.

[FlorianB]

I still can’t see any evidence, just speculation.

The star constellation You show us on the Chinese chart consists out of eight stars while Your tsuba pattern show nine. Thus the connection of the stars is not identical.
And is the constellation You highlighted on the chart the Great Dipper at all which You want to see on Your tsuba?

 

That’s the problem: if the number doesn’t concur, superfluous stars have to be ignored or You talk about mysterious „ ‘dark’ stars, the existence of which astrologers and thus everyone believed in“.
Where do You get this from? What actually are these „dark stars“ obviously mixing up astrology with astronomy?

 

As far as I know, the Japanese — unlike the Chinese — were never particularly interested in astronomy and concerned themselves with the celestial bodies solely for aesthetic reasons.

Thus they adopted the Chinese interpretation and that was enough for them to know.

While the sun and especially the moon are ubiquitous in Japanese art, poetry etc. the stars are as far as possible ignored.

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, FlorianB said:

As far as I know, the Japanese — unlike the Chinese — were never particularly interested in astronomy and concerned themselves with the celestial bodies solely for aesthetic reasons.

Thus they adopted the Chinese interpretation and that was enough for them to know.

A dip into Google maybe suggests otherwise?
Not looking for an argument!….but things apparently changed as Edo progressed. 

Also,  I do not think we should expect the  tsubashi of Edo period to be astronomically perfectly accurate. As with many subjects in Japanese Art, it is often more of a “suggestion”, often leaving the viewer to ponder exactly what they are looking at. To me it is not beyond imagination to think that maybe some artists did combine the broken shippo design with a constellation every now and then, adapting one element to fit the other, but maybe not exactly?

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

 

 Hi Florian, 

 

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions in your post (although backing up your statements with pictures and/or references would have been desirable). 

 

Yes, I know and have stated in a previous post in this threat showing the old Japanese star chart that the number of stars is not identical to the tsuba and I also stated something like that there are a lot of stars out there to add to any constellation. 

 

Now, as far as I am concerned, (especially in the pattern of that constellation) the match is close enough. 

 

I also now think that the constellation shown on the star map tsuba is the Little Dipper. 

 

If you refer to the caption under the star chart (in that previous post of mine), you will see where it is stated that the stars shown in the circle are centered on the North Pole.  That is exactly the location of the Little Dipper, and it is the constellation that I circled in blue on that star chart. 

 

I don’t think all of this is a coincidence. 

 

Then you stated, “While the sun and especially the moon are ubiquitous in Japanese art, poetry etc. the stars are as far as possible ignored.” 

Well, I found on this thread below a quote from you that I quote part of below; 

 

 

 

“In Your case the motif is stars, so I think we have a kamon constisting out of a stellar group and three other stars on the right side.” 

 

Then you can go to this website below- 

 

https://irohakamon.com/kamon/hoshi/juuboshi.html

 

Scroll down somewhat until you see all the kamon with stars. 

 

So, as you stated, “the stars are as far as possible ignored”. 

 

Well, I don’t think so! 

 

And I believe that some  tsuba artisans made some tsuba to depict star maps (constellations). 

 

Onward, the "puzzlemaster" (referring to what Sam S. referred to me as in one of his posts on this thread!).

[Scogg]

No, Dan. I said you think of yourself as a puzzlemaster, and that believing you've solved puzzles overlooked by generations of Japanese craftsmen, collectors, historians, and scholars is extraordinarily presumptuous.

I did not call you one, and I do not think you are one. 

I suggest if you wish to gain that title; you have to actually complete one of the puzzles you've fabricated from nowhere.

So far you're just pointing at your puzzle and saying "look a missing piece!" ; and then pretending like you found it because "patterns similar". If that makes you a puzzle-master, then I'm the Pope 

This forum has a built-in "quote" function by the way; it will save you time, and notify the users that you quote.
-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam, 

 

Anyway, I like the title of “puzzlemaster”.  You suggested it and I will use it! 

 

As far as your statement “I suggest if you wish to gain that title; you have to actually complete one of the puzzles you've fabricated from nowhere. 
So far you're just pointing at your puzzle and saying "look a missing piece!" ; and then pretending like you found it because "patterns similar". If that makes you a puzzle-master, then I'm the Pope.” 

 

No need to be rude (my opinion). 

 

If you don’t think that I haven’t completed a puzzle (that you think-incorrectly-that I fabricated from nowhere), then it appears to me that you don’t have a Zen mind, beginners mind.   

 

Like I stated in a previous post, you can’t add tea to a teacup that is already full. 

 

Just as you can’t add knowledge to a mind that is already full. 

 

Maybe if you had studied astronomy, the stars, and constellations (as I have) you might (quite literally) see things differently. 

 

As far as your suggestion of using the quote function, thanks.  I will think about it.

 

Onward, the puzzlemaster!

[Scogg]

In my opinion, Dan, you're being remarkably rude to generations of craftsmen, collectors, historians, scholars, and the NBTHK by suggesting they've all overlooked meanings that you've uncovered, while offering no evidence beyond your own interpretation of visual similarities.

 

You may think I have a beginner's mind. That's fine. The difference is that I don't presume to know or see more than the people who have spent lifetimes studying these objects. And I'm not taking it upon myself to play make-believe detective, and think that I've somehow solved mysteries that generations of experts somehow overlooked.

 

You and I are both beginners; let's not pretend otherwise.

-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

Well Sam, 

 

Evidently this back and forth is getting us nowhere fast! 

 

Firstly, I didn’t say you have a beginners mind. 

 

I stated, “then it appears to me that you don’t have a Zen mind, beginners mind.”     

 

So, be advised. 

 

I received my bachelor's degree in 1976; I received my master's degree in 1981. 

 

Like I use to tell my troops (yes, I served 16 years active duty in the U.S. military) “when it comes to a battle of wits with me, you come unarmed”. 

 

Just food for thought. 

 

Onward, the puzzlemaster! 

[FlorianB]

I just pointed out, that in Japanese culture stars have not the same significance as sun or moon.

What is the sense of misinterpreting me?

Why conflating this with my comments from other threads?
 

I’m somewhat surprised by the direction this discussion is taking.

At least not really surprised remembering a certain thread about cast iron tsuba.

 

Obviously it is the intention is to silence critics.

 

Edited Thursday at 03:05 PM by FlorianB

[Dan tsuba]

Well, Florian, 

 

I did not misinterpret you (as you stated). 

 

I just put a quote from you on this thread together with a quote from you on another thread to display how your opinion changes from one thread to another. 

 

And you can try to put me down about my thread about cast iron tsuba (actually that thread is titled "Tsuba casting molds").

 

Nice try, but no cigar!

 

That thread has about 66.3 K views.  Evidently that thread (as this one at 2K views) has a lot of people looking at it that don’t want to add anything to it; they are probably just trying to learn from the threads (hey, and that is what it is all about!). 

 

Now, as far as this forum is concerned.  People can put their “likes” and “loves” emoji on those people that they support.  But that emoji support doesn’t make the opinion of that person and his post automatically correct! 

 

I refer you to what I stated in my other post above! 

 

Onward, the “puzzlemaster”!

 

[Scogg]

Arguments and drama generate clicks. That's why reality TV is popular.  This forum is supposed to be about education and evidence over entertainment.

 

You seem remarkably proud of the attention you've generated, but views are not validation. If they were, every conspiracy theory on the internet would become historical fact. 

 

You've still failed to produce what actually matters: period documentation, contemporary references, or credible scholarship or experts supporting your claims of these partial shippo designs representing constellations. Instead, we're expected to accept, "It looks similar, therefore it must be connected. Now it’s up to you to prove me wrong! But why bother because my opinion insulates me from accepting anything else anyway! Onward!".
 

A hypothesis without evidence remains a hypothesis, no matter how many times it's repeated. Pattern similarities may be interesting, but it’s not proof. 

 

What's disappointing is that there is a genuinely interesting discussion to be had about star motifs, casting methods, and other manufacturing techniques. Instead, it's been buried beneath circular arguments that never move beyond personal interpretation because no supporting evidence ever materializes. Likely because it’s not there, and the suggestion that it ever was is only coming from one stubborn individual. 

 

The real casualty isn't your reputation, it's the quality of discussion on this forum. New collectors come here expecting to learn history, not watch unsupported theories get repeated until they sound familiar. I imagine that serious researchers don't avoid these threads because they're afraid of debate; they avoid them because debate without evidence is a waste of time and engaging in conspiracy theories damages this hobby and real historical study. 

 

If your goal is historical understanding, then produce historical evidence. If your goal is engagement, congratulations, you've succeeded. Just don't confuse one with the other.

 

Honestly, I’d lock or delete that casting thread if it were up to me. Start a new one with more education and facts, and less speculation and bickering. 

-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

Sam,

Blah, blah, blah.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about and are just impressed with your own knowledge.

Do what you want.  Lock my threads.

Personnaly, I don't give a rat's ass (or ars depending on who is reading this!).

The "puzzlemaster"!

[Scogg]

My own knowledge? To be clear, I don't know if there's a connection or not. I don't have knowledge on this subject, and I would actually love to learn; even if your theory were to be correct!

 

But to learn anything, I need some source material, period document, something published, maybe nbthk papers or older papers, or expert input that corroborates your theories.

The reason I may seem frustrated, is because members have been begging for such material from you for what feels like a long time now across discussions. The repeated failure to produce such material and push the idea anyway turns what was a completely reasonable hypothosis into what now seems like a conspiracy theory. 

I will not lock your threads. I wont do any moderator actions because i'm clearly involved, and my judgement would be viewed as being compromised. I'm just another member trying to learn about fittings, and getting lost down these rabbit holes to nowhere. 
-Sam