Help with the history of this sword

[Kris Johnson]

My grandfather, who served as an aerial gunner and navigator on an Avenger in WWII, gave me this sword just before he passed. He would not talk about the war or his experiences, ever. We also have his navigational map of the pacific with hand written flight routes and his flight logs with all the details of successful bombings as well as losses during combat. He did tell me he received this sword when he was in the Pacific Theater during his time in the Navy. Can anyone tell me anything about this sword? The handle wrap and material has just become more and more brittle over the years- even stored in a safe. Just wanting to put a little more history behind my grandfathers military service. Oh, it’s extremely sharp and I cannot see a makers mark on the tang. Thanks kindly.

 

kris Johnson

[John C]

Kris:

I'll start you off. The only thing I can say for sure is that it was not made by the military. The mounts are civilian and the blade does not have the typical stamps as a military blade. But it still may have been used in ww2. Some civilians, called gunzoku, who worked for the military would be allowed to carry swords. As to the blade, I will leave that up to others to discuss. 

 

John C.

[Kris Johnson]

Thank you for the information, John. It is a great start for me.

[Bruce Pennington]

Kris, welcome to NMB!  Do you know if he served at the end of the war and/or during the post-war occupation?  Any idea when/where he picked this up?

I don't study civil blades and fittings, so take this with a grain of salt, and I could be wrong, but the metal-work of the fittings strike me as something made for tourists and souvenir seekers.  But they guys that know those things can chime in to clear me up or confirm.

 

The blade looks legit, and possibly made during WWII for the civil market.  If you want the blade experts to evaluate it, take some shots of the bare blade, on a dark surface (light surfaces mess with the auto-light-sensing camera functions).  A couple close shots showing the hamon (temper line) if you can see it, and one of the blade tip.  Measurements, like in this chart, will prove useful too.

[ChrisW]

Loosely approximates what military mounts would look like from a distance...

So probably carried by Gunzoku (civilian military contractors; think desk jockeys, military installation labor organizers, etc) but it might have also been carried by someone of rank who could ignore regulations. The first option is much more likely, given the quality of the piece. If an officer was of such consequence that he could ignore regulations, he'd probably have something a little more fancy. 

 

Third option? Civilian piece surrendered at the end of the war and taken home as a war prize. This is also very likely.

Either way, nice find! 

~Chris

[Kris Johnson]

Thanks everyone for the information. My grandfather served in the Navy from January 1942 to September 1945. He was on a few different aircraft carriers and was part of the naval bombardment of Peleliu. I think he may have also been in the 2nd battle of the Philippines, and possibly the pre-invasion of Okinawa. I don’t think he was land based but rather on a carrier. Could it be possible he may have traded it with a Marine in the carrier!?!

 

I cannot get the photos to upload but the blade is approximately 21.5”. It is very sharp from tip to guard. The Kissaki is 1 inch. There are distinct tapper lines, but it’s hard to see if not in the right lighting/angle. It appears there may be some lite stamps in the tang but it is hard to tell with the patina and grind markings. 

[John C]

28 minutes ago, Kris Johnson said:

Could it be possible he may have traded it with a Marine in the carrier!?

I'm going to say not likely, though not impossible. Marines would have picked up military swords on the islands. One exception may be the town of Naha on Okinawa. There could have been civilian swords there. But given the quality of the fittings, I think Bruce's assessment of it being during or post war civilian is most likely.

No absolutes in this hobby just probabilities based on what we have seen before.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Kris Johnson said:

It appears there may be some lite stamps in the tang but it is hard to tell with the patina and grind markings. 

This is the main part we need to see.  If the photos are too big, you can try the Edit function on your photo viewer to crop them a bit.  If that isn't enough, google "free photo resizer" and you can reduce the MBs of your photo.

[Kris Johnson]

not sure if these are going to work, but I’m gonna give it a try. It sounds like it may have been what has been said on this thread, a civilian military sword. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I suspect this was made very late war, possibly in occupied areas.  It appears to have originally had a haikan (belt hanger) where I've put this arrow, and likely a leather cover that is now missing.  The tsuba (hand guard) was made to go with a leather cover, as it has the side-hole for a leather retention strap.  It is only because of your knowledge that your grandfather brought this home that I say this, as the workmanship of the blade and fittings doesn't really match Japanese qualities.  Without your provenance, I would have assumed it to be a replica made for tourists.

 

I don't mean any disrespect as this is a family heirloom brought back by your grandfather.  

 

[Kris Johnson]

Thanks for all the feedback, Bruce. No offense taken at all. I wasn’t sure if I should worry about having it refurbished by an expert or just leave it as is. I will keep it with my grandpa’s fight helmet and radio and other personal WWII memorabilia. 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I don't  think your sword is a late war piece . I think it is a real 19th or possibly early 20th century sword of low quality.  The pocket for a kozuka would not appear on a late war piece . The quality of the seppa also points to this being real

[Kris Johnson]

Thank you for the information, Ian. It is helpful for sure. I’m no expert but my grandfather actually brought two swords home from WWII. This one I have pictured, which is very sharp or was at one time, and another that was definitely a tourist consumer sword that had a very dull blade and very ornate. I have been to Japan while in the service and it matched what I saw in souvenir shops. The one I posted just looks and feels older, maybe more authentic rather than tourist quality. I guess that’s why I put it in here, so I could possibly learn more about this sword. Thanks again for your input.

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm glad Ian commented on this, and glad I'm wrong!  I often get into trouble when I'm commenting on swords out of my normal field of study.

 

Thanks Ian!