Why I prefer Japanese oshigata

[CSM101]

Sometimes they are equal...

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:00 PM by CSM101
A

[CSM101]

...and sometimes they are not.

 

Aizu Shintogo and Kosetsu Sa Monji.

[nulldevice]

Just for fun, 2 more oshigata of the Kosetsu Samonji

 

[Lewis B]

I'll play. This is a bit of the curve ball though. The Kaikuni Go has 2 quite different oshigata although the 1st one was probably drawn after it sustained fire damage and 2nd after an unsympathetic saiha. 

 

 

Echo's of this sorry workmanship

[CSM101]

Another photo.

 

 

[Brano]

Kosetsu Samonji was published twice in Token Bijutsu and also twice in the En version of Token Bijutsu
Here is the better En version

[Brano]

And one of the best photographs available - the 1961 Masamune no Sono Ichimon exhibition

[Brano]

... and a video of this blade from the Masamune no Sono Ichimon 2024 exhibition
Sorry for the quality, the lighting conditions were limited

https://eu.zonerama.com/Nihonto/Photo/14796705/599892574?secret=4mw04Yf9fo7i2EYh32MPkN3JO

 

[MassiveMoonHeh]

31 minutes ago, Brano said:

... and a video of this blade from the Masamune no Sono Ichimon 2024 exhibition
Sorry for the quality, the lighting conditions were limited

https://eu.zonerama.com/Nihonto/Photo/14796705/599892574?secret=4mw04Yf9fo7i2EYh32MPkN3JO

 

Whilst I love seeing high res Oshigata (although at the moment we are very much the scan rather than the original source generation) I wish we had more videos like this. Absolutely transforms the way we see and understand blades on the web. Invaluable for how we learn about and can appreciate blades from a long distance. Wish museums and the NBTHK would pick this up and do it professionally for all the swords of note in their collections and that pass through their doors.

[MassiveMoonHeh]

Just me or does anyone else prefer to view the Oshigata images flipped landscape? Helps me blow them on the big screen to look at them a little more closely - although this is only valuable if I have a good resolution... to echo @Lewis B we need more high res images and I would love to start seeing some of these original images appearing online rather than scanned images as the problem with scanned images unless they come from actual photographs you start to see the printing dots.

[eternal_newbie]

7 hours ago, MassiveMoonHeh said:

Just me or does anyone else prefer to view the Oshigata images flipped landscape?

 

Absolutely, yes. And having two large monitors next to each other means I can view most blades at "actual size" (playing with the zoom until the on-screen measurements match the measurements in the description) across the two of them.

 

"Actual size" in quotes because the proportions will usually be at least slightly warped due to the perspective of the scanner bed or camera lens.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Video that Brano took of the sword is incredible. I have viewed the sword in its normal residing place and it is a wonderful sword.

 

The video shows the details very nicely. I think sometimes with high quality video I can see more details than with my own eyes.

 

However as for me the size and shape is the driving factor with swords, seeing them in person can create different effect than seeing oshigata, photos or videos.

[Jacques]

5 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Video that Brano took of the sword is incredible. I have viewed the sword in its normal residing place and it is a wonderful sword.

 

The video shows the details very nicely. I think sometimes with high quality video I can see more details than with my own eyes.

 

However as for me the size and shape is the driving factor with swords, seeing them in person can create different effect than seeing oshigata, photos or videos.

You can't see the nioiguchi on the video, yet it's an essential factor in evaluating a sword.

 

 

Don't confuse oshigata with a drawing

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think there are always compromises that you need to make in sword viewing unless you can hold the actual item in person.

 

I am happy I am not interested in small details so I can easily enjoy displays in museums & shrines even if the lighting for example would not allow viewing finer details.

 

Most often we can only view one side of the item in museum displays. I really like the displays where you can view both sides but then the backside is often not lit well.

 

I am not a photographer but I would think you would need several videos to capture the various details because you would need to film at various angles. As you will often need to perform lot of moving around and shifting positions when looking at items in museums. Sometimes the museums in Tokyo for example can be crowded and in good manners the view time for a sword can be bit limited in one go. That is why I love some of the rural shrines as they have items I love and I can spend the whole day looking at them if I want.

 

One extremely good thing about oshigata is that the published ones are mostly made by experts with an expert eye. They can identify small details that I don't see or grasp and feature them in the oshigata. In ideal world I could see all the things featured in oshigata but in reality I am not at that level.

[Natichu]

23 hours ago, Jacques said:

You can't see the nioiguchi on the video, yet it's an essential factor in evaluating a sword.

 

 

Don't confuse oshigata with a drawing

Certainly, but in any pursuit there's something to be said for not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. 

 

While there is no replacement for getting to have the item in hand and spend hours studying it with a proper instructor, our knowledge and enjoyment can be improved with the many informational aids available to us. Written setsumei, oshigata, photos, videos like this one. None are a replacement (and I think it's a straw man argument to suggest anyone is saying they are) but all serve to help us, at the very least, enjoy these swords that much more and likely learn more than we did before we saw them. 

Edited Sunday at 05:06 PM by Natichu
Fixed typo.

[Jacques]

Quote

there is no a replacement for getting to have the item in hand and spend hours studying it with a proper instructor,

That's what I did for many years

 

 

Quote

our knowledge and enjoyment can be improved with the many informational aids available to us.

Joy, yes. For knowledge, it depends on what you mean by that word. I don't think we have the same understanding of that word.

[sabiji]

Jacques, everyone is at a different stage of learning, everyone learns differently, and everyone has their own expectations for their goals. After all, you weren't born an expert.

Personally, I can only express my opinion from my own perspective. And even that opinion was different 15 years ago and might be different in 15 years – if I'm still alive then.

Personally, I currently only buy literature that mentions Oshigata, if at all. The NBTHK publications accompanying museum exhibitions often contain both: excellent photographs and Oshigata. And that's a good thing.

The NBTHK's Shijo Kantei, for example, is also interesting. In recent years, blades with different Oshigata designations have appeared there, even with slight differences in the description and sometimes even minimal variations in dimensions.

The differences in the description and Oshigata of the same blade are due to the author's perspective.

Or, to put it more clearly: Someone who has studied a particular smith or their school over a long period will depict the oshigata of a specific blade differently than someone who has had little to no contact with that smith. The former will emphasize the swordsmith's character more strongly, while the latter will approach the oshigata more technically.

I would argue that the situation of a professional oshigata artist is not unlike that of a first-class polisher. They must decide how best to express the essence of a particular swordsmith's work. Some elements can be highlighted and emphasized, while others are better kept subtle.

A good oshigata offers the student significant advantages, as it allows them to focus more easily on specific details than when studying an actual blade, where many factors come into play—such as polishing, lighting, and even their own ability to concentrate, which is not always consistent. With an oshigata , a large portion of the information is naturally filtered out—information that, when studying a real blade, more or less consciously floods the viewer.

This can quickly overwhelm beginners. Over time, one learns to temporarily block out certain things and retrieve them when needed. This requires a lot of practice and good eye training.

Finally, I can't help but chuckle when I read Jussi's comment about viewing blades in a museum. You can immediately tell who's a "regular" and who's a sword-fighting student. And it's not unusual to be surprised to see someone performing the "sword viewing dance" in front of the display case—someone you wouldn't have expected at all.

 

Edited Monday at 11:15 AM by sabiji

[Jacques]

Just to be clear

An oshigata isn't just a drawing; it's a full-scale reproduction of a sword, and the nakago is “imprinted”

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Jacques

[Rivkin]

99% of what you see in oshigata is arbitrary drawing. Blade's outline and nakago signature are supposed to be an honest imprint, but that's not what people who study oshigata are really interested in. At best you get a decent hamon outline. If you know school's work you can mentally reconstruct the jigane and the hamon, if you don't its probably confusing infinitely more than helping.