Naginata-naoshi

[Matsunoki]

Just a dumb question….are we talking purely about naginata naoshi or are we bringing nagamaki naoshi into the debate……accidentally? My understanding is that many nagamaki did not originally have the extreme increase in the sakihaba and sugata that naginata have and would therefore be more easily adapted as swords thus with kaeri far more easily retained?

[Jacques]

 

https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords/JT988980.htm

[Franco]

On 4/16/2025 at 9:08 AM, Jacques said:

On a true naginata naoshi, boshi must be yakitsume 

 

 

On 4/16/2025 at 12:36 PM, Jacques said:

Please don't confuse naginata naoshi with naginata naoshi zukuri...

 

Jacques, there is no confusion. Naginata naoshi and naginata (zukuri) naoshi all fall under and into one category, naginata.

Naginata are pole arms. Therefore, even when they have been modified they will all be recognized as naginata-naoshi. 

A nagamaki designation will only be given when there is documentation that a naginata was mounted as a nagamaki.

Otherwise, it remains as a naginata. So, then, what is true?

 

What is true will be determined by evaluating each piece independently.  That, unless someone talks the NBTHK into redefining established definitions and terms. And as Michael has said here as well as others before, making blanket statements when it comes to nihonto should be approached with clear attention and caution. Had it been said, "naginata-naoshi (zukuri) will end in yakitsume," most likely no one would have batted an eye. 

 

Further, you used the words "real", "true", and "copies". Yes, there are indeed copies, but these words are suggestive that some of the "naginata-naoshi images and oshigata of" posted in this thread are just copies, too. No, they are not copies. The shape of these polearms evolved through time. They are not copies, they are true, and they are real!

Words and language like "zukuri" are essential/critical to say what you mean and mean what you say.   

 

Edited April 18 by Franco
+ essential

[Mushin]

Jacques, am I wrong, or are you suggesting that all the naginata naioshi examples in this thread with kaeri - several with Juyo Token - are not really naioshi at all, but are blades either forged in naginata naioshi zukuri style or were fashioned from blades with other sugata?  I mean, you are obviously entitled to whatever beliefs you want to adhere to, but these are all blades identified by the various NBTHK shinsa panels as being naginata naioshi. And they obviously have kaeri. So, logically, based on your argument, either it is possible to alter certain shapes of naginata in such a way to preserve at least some of the turn back, or the NBTHK, which you usually defend as being the kinds of experts we civilians hobbyists could never be, are clueless when it comes to this blade form? Not trying to be facetious here, but these are the only logical conclusions I can draw from your argument. That doesn't mean that in most cases -- as you point out -- that the kaeri is lost because of the shape of the original naginata, but it seems obvious that it doesn't apply to every one. Just sayin...

[Jacques]

Once again, demonstrate to me that it's possible to keep a kaeri on a naginata naoshi (what technique is used)    I know of only one exception (picture attached). Having said that, I wonder if NBTHK isn't lumping everything into the same basket : true naoshi and made as if...

[Franco]

 

 

So, this is what experiencing "Deja vu all over again is like."

 

Here today, here tomorrow.

 

Desire is the cause of suffering.

[Bugyotsuji]

Unbelievable triple coincidence. Just arrived at the museum in town to listen to a lecture on special order swords. Guess what the very first one I am looking at is… had no idea it was here! 

[Tsuku]

Using a shintō Tadatsuna is inappropriate. Shintō naginata were not generally cut down and the shape of the naginata changed dramatically from kotō examples.

 

In good faith, here is a side-by-side example that illustrates how this is possible. The left is a Shikkake naginata that went Tokuju in the 26th shinsa. The right is the oshigata for the Juyo Kunimune I linked earlier. Obviously the Kunimune started from a different blade, so it is not a dead-nuts match, but I think from this it is very clear how the boshi can be preserved in the course of naginata-naoshi.

 

[Jacques]

 

Quote

but I think from this it is very clear how the boshi can be preserved in the course of naginata-naoshi.

No. No demonstration and you present us two different swords. The problem with a naginata naoshi is that we don't know what its form was before it was transformed, so we can only base it on existing naginata. What interests me is what is physically possible, nothing else. 

[Jacques]

 

To add to the confusion

 

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/polearms.htm

[Brano]

5 minutes ago, Jacques said:

 

No. No demonstration and you present us two different swords. The problem with a naginata naoshi is that we don't know what its form was before it was transformed, so we can only base it on existing naginata. What interests me is what is physically possible, nothing else. 

Come on Jacques
Do you expect someone to show you a blade before and after?
What is the argument that they are two different blades?
On the left is the blade that NBTHK designated as a naginata
If you have even a little imagination, then you can guess whether it is possible to preserve the kaeri when transforming into a naginata-naoshi by modifying this particular blade by the mune

 

[Gakusee]

30 minutes ago, Brano said:

Come on Jacques
Do you expect someone to show you a blade before and after?
What is the argument that they are two different blades?
On the left is the blade that NBTHK designated as a naginata
If you have even a little imagination, then you can guess whether it is possible to preserve the kaeri when transforming into a naginata-naoshi by modifying this particular blade by the mune

 

 

Brano, it is pointless. 
 

We have shown him around 7-8 Koto naginata naoshi (which were reworked as they were shortened, lost their mei etc) and have kaeri and he is still wondering how it is possible. 

All that needs to be said is that different naginata had different curvature and different flaring at the tip and that is why it is possible. 
 

P.S. I think Jacques is getting fixated on the very deeply curved naginata with large heads which flare out too much. These cannot be reworked without yakitsume. The more modestly curved ones with not much flaring-out clearly can and have been, in the past, reworked with the kaeri remaining. 
 

 

[Rayhan]

I second @Gakusee because I have owned Naginata that were very slender and although I have no love for them (sold long ago) they come in a variety of sori.

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do think Jacques does have a good point, and what he says is true in general. Of course I do think Jacques often is very extreme in his views and I tend to think there is a lot of grey area.

 

When talking about naginata I personally include all the bladed single edged polearms into this. I think the more terminology we add in the more complicated it can get. I have followed some discussions about details in blades and it often seems people understand the things differently. Just want to point this out that when I talk and about naginata this is what I mean. Of course it is also very thin line between some ōdachi types and naginata.

 

You can see some very large flaring of the tip on the Tadatsuna naginata Jacques presented and the Sukesada naginata that me & Piers posted. Personally I am not a big fan of that naginata blade style. However it is of course a historical blade style proven to be effective as it has been used for long time. Remodeling naginata of this style would be tricky as Jacques has explained.

 

Now I spent probably close to 2 hours creating this following image. This has 10 different naginata from Kamakura & Nanbokuchō periods, with 1 75 cm tachi by Awataguchi Kuniyoshi and 70 cm katana by Hizen Tadahiro as reference items to show how massive some of these polearms are. I have seen 5 of the naginata in this picture (marked with X) and the true size of the big ones if difficult to explain in picture. The original image I have is about 21MB so I downsized this one. I was counting the scaling roughly by pixels, it is not 100% correct but I would say something like at least 90% accurate.

 

 

1. 51,5 cm - Kagemitsu (1322) (Tokyo National Museum) X

2. 52,4 cm - Norishige (1325) (Ōyamazumi Jinja) X

3. 95,7 cm - Katayama Ichimonji (Uesugi Jinja)

4. 75,5 cm - Awataguchi Kuniyoshi tachi (TJ 15)

5. 83,1 cm - Shikkake (TJ 26) (Jacques posted this earlier)

6. 42,8 cm - Ryō Hisanobu (1308) (Tokugawa Art Museum)

7. 80,6 cm - Hōjōji (Ōtaki Castle Museum) [this one actually has 131 cm tang but I have not got a picture anywhere that would show it in full length]

8. 70,5 cm - Hizen Tadahiro Katana (TJ 14)

9. 98,0 cm - Kanemitsu or Yoshimitsu (Futarasan Jinja) X

10. 80,1 cm - By legend Tomoe Gozen naginata, in reality Nanbokuchō naginata (Ōyamazumi Jinja) X [nakago was cut off a bit in photo]

11. 44,2 cm - Nagamitsu (Sano Art Museum)

12. 101,4 cm - By legend Benkei naginata, in reality Kamakura - Nanbokuchō naginata (Ōyamazumi Jinja) X [Nakago was cut off in photo]

[atm]

Bravo @Jussi Ekholm. For me as a relative novice, your composite image really puts these sizes into perspective.

[Jacques]

Quote

Do you expect someone to show you a blade before and after?

Don't make me look like an idiot, it's impossible. All I want is for someone to show me that you can keep a large kaeri on a real naginata naoshi. Having said that, I know that nobody will be able to do it...

[Jacques]

Quote

 I think Jacques is getting fixated on the very deeply curved naginata with large heads which flare out too much. These cannot be reworked without yakitsume. The more modestly curved ones with not much flaring-out clearly can and have been, in the past, reworked with the kaeri remaining. 
 

When you have one hundredth of the skills of the author of this drawing and the book from which it is taken, maybe you can talk.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

When you have one hundredth of the skills of the author of this drawing and the book from which it is taken, maybe you can talk.

A swing and a miss. Again. You are choosing examples that prove your point. What you refuse to see are the examples above that have different style of boshi such that if the blade was modified to naginata-naoshi, a small kaeri could be retained. 

[Jacques]

I already quoted it. Have a look at the location of the boshi, i guess before naoshi the boshi was almost ichimai. Nothing to do with your examples...

[Jacques]

I found these 2 naginata the first one is by Nagamitsu (Kamakura Bizen) the second one is by Kagemitsu (Kamakura Bizen) it is obvious that if you practice a naoshi on these naginata the boshi will disappear (Same for all the examples I already shared)

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am fortunate to have 2 Nanbokuchō naginata Yoshikage is ubu and the Ko-Uda attributed one has been shortened in my opinion by about 20 cm but it is still judged as naginata by NBTHK.

 

As we were discussing about naoshi earlier and what naginata would be good candidates for successful process I don't think either of the two I have would be very good end products as swords. Both of these have quite late curvature so it might not be ideal for repurposing. Also the physical size of these might make these bit awkward to be used as wakizashi. The Ko-Uda one is currently very tip heavy even with the still long tang, I believe originally it has been quite large weapon in overall. Of course the heavy weight makes it tough to me to figure out how it would be as a wakizashi size item. I am not a swordsman so I cannot give great insight on that. Of course as both of these are shaped as they are I feel the kaeri would be lost if wanting to make an usable short sword shape.

 

 

The lower Yoshikage is smaller in size. It is actually very similar in size to the Ryō Hisanobu naginata in composite image above. Of course it is almost 100 years younger 1308 - 1389. While it might look to be easy to repurpose on the above picture as it would make a small wakizashi, I show the below pictures to give the idea of the 3D visualization that I was talking about earlier. As you can see it is around 10mm at nakago mune, and around 1mm at cutting portion mune. The items need reshaping in many different parts in order to create a good end result. So if made into a wakizashi it cannot have such a thick nakago in overall and it will have to be reduced a lot in thickness.

 

Really I am not qualified to give insight on how these should be altered I think swordsmiths and polishers would be the best ones to answer. Then people practicing sword arts could give their view on how the altered naginata will feel when used as a sword in comparison to swords that were made as swords to begin with.

 

[Natichu]

4 hours ago, Jacques said:

I found these 2 naginata the first one is by Nagamitsu (Kamakura Bizen) the second one is by Kagemitsu (Kamakura Bizen) it is obvious that if you practice a naoshi on these naginata the boshi will disappear (Same for all the examples I already shared)

@Jacques, I don't think anyone above is arguing against the idea that in many, if not most, cases the naoshi process will mean the kaeri is lost. The rule of thumb is likely that one identifying feature of a naginata-naoshi is the fact the boshi is yakizume. However, what I think is being pointed out is this is not inevitable or universal, as there are examples showing exceptions to the rule. That is, blades that have been determined to be naginata-naoshi by a panel of experts with the blade in hand showing an (admittedly) small kaeri.

 

Can I tell you what the process is that leads to this? Not in any meaningful way (we're both well aware of my very limited knowledge base), though my hypothesis would be this is likely possible based in the exact shape and geometry of the original blade, which could vary significantly while still being a naginata. But I would certainly defer to the opinion of the experts with blade in hand in saying clearly it is possible.

[Jacques]

Quote

That is, blades that have been determined to be naginata-naoshi by a panel of experts with the blade in hand showing an (admittedly) small kaeri.

Even the experts can't say what a naginata was like before the naoshi. I'm going by facts and waiting to see a naginata whose boshi is made in such a way that a kaeri can persist. I've already shared a naoshi naginata with a very short kaeri and a temper line very close to the cutting edge, with a wider hamon at the bottom.

[Jacques]

This one wouldn't even need a kissaki modification.

[Rivkin]

Sad thing is 99.9% of discussions in museum and academic community are exactly like this.

Long and tedious chewing of highly abstract and inconsequential topic.

The "winners" are becoming department chairs.

[Franco]

8 hours ago, Jacques said:

I found these 2 naginata the first one is by Nagamitsu (Kamakura Bizen) the second one is by Kagemitsu (Kamakura Bizen) it is obvious that if you practice a naoshi on these naginata the boshi will disappear (Same for all the examples I already shared)

 

Jacques, for a scientist I find your position here to be quite closed minded. Tsk, tsk, tsk!

 

The image I posted earlier of a naginata-naoshi that clearly, clearly, retains a bosh with a lengthy turnback, kaeri, was made by none other than Chikakage, student of Nagamitsu and forge mate of Kagemitsu, the two smiths presented in your latest post. By the way, that boshi is a double boshi. It has a double turnback. I later researched that and found only one example of a sword with a double turnback boshi almost exactly the same. A Nagamitsu. Does the fact that this sword has a double boshi have something to do with the FACT that it retained a boshi with a turnback following naoshi? Maybe. But it doesn't matter, unless you're someone attempting to recreate this example, technique.

The reality is that after naoshi it still has a boshi with turnback. It is frivolous to argue and try to prove otherwise

 

And, let me state this again. EACH NAGINATA-NAOSHI MUST BE EXAMINED INDIVIDUALLY AND INDEPENDENTLY IN ORDER TO SEE, SEE, WITH YOUR OWN EYES, EXACTLY WHAT REMAINS! What remains is reality. What remains is only evidence of what happened. Unless yakitsume is witnessed and presented in every single example, if there is even one exception, then the statement that yakitsume must be the result of every naoshi is false!  t + f = f, 7th grade science. 

 

The fact that the NBTHK does not differentiate between the types of naginata when addressing this category of naginata-naoshi, instead placing all nagnata-naoshi in the same category hints to the fact that exceptions and variations are recognized. Why is this so difficult to accept. 

 

Heavy sigh ....

 

Quote

 

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.

Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address

 

 

[Jacques]

 

Quote

The image I posted earlier of a naginata-naoshi that clearly, clearly, retains a bosh with a lengthy turnback, kaeri,

Have you ever imagined what this naginata looked like before transformation? What level the boshi was at? It must not have been very aesthetic.

[Franco]

8 hours ago, Jacques said:

 

Have you ever imagined what this naginata looked like before transformation? What level the boshi was at? It must not have been very aesthetic.

 

 First, the Nagamitsu with the same double boshi was designated a National Treasure sword. 

 

Secondly, I don't think that the aesthetics of the boshi mattered much to the samurai cutting down his opponent, nor the unfortunate person being cut down. 

 

Thirdly, Chikakage has been designated a National Treasure sword smith with more than 70 swords rated Juyo or above. 

I kind of get the feeling that he knew what he was doing.

Don't you?

 

Stop digging!

 

Done here with this nonsense.

 

 

 

[Jacques]

Quote

First, the Nagamitsu with the same double boshi was designated a National Treasure sword. 

So what ? Is it a proof it is a real naginata naoshi ? No. 

I noticed that on the shijo kantei NBTHK mentions naginata naoshi only (boshi are yakitsume) if it's a waki, waki is added. which makes me think (until proven otherwise) that on the papers (hozon etc) NBTHK encompasses both real naoshi and those made in the style just as they don't differentiate between generations of blacksmiths.

[Natichu]

4 hours ago, Jacques said:

So what ? Is it a proof it is a real naginata naoshi ? No. 

I noticed that on the shijo kantei NBTHK mentions naginata naoshi only (boshi are yakitsume) if it's a waki, waki is added. which makes me think (until proven otherwise) that on the papers (hozon etc) NBTHK encompasses both real naoshi and those made in the style just as they don't differentiate between generations of blacksmiths.

Unless, of course, they're satisfied that despite modification to the nakago there has been no modification to the kissaki, and so leaving the kaeri, in which case they continue to refer to it as a naginata:

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashibizen-kuni-ukai-ju-unjuthe-16th-nbthk-juyo-token/

 

Discussed here:

 

Seeems like in the case you're proposing, if they were going to be duped surely they'd be more likely to continue to refer to blade as a naginata simpliciter, rather than as a balde that has undergone naoshi?