Looking for Feedback on Heritage Auction's June 10th Arms & Armor Auction

[DigitalSpace]

New member here - I found this forum when looking up some information on old smiths.  I don't actively collect swords, but it is a topic I've read about quite a bit.  A couple of days ago, Heritage Auctions had their "2024 June 10 Arms & Armor, Civil War & Militaria Signature® Auction #6291".  I'm on their mailing lists for other things, so this isn't something I search for, however I did watch the beginning of it since it had some Japanese swords and armor.  This auction had 10 Japanese pieces in it (all at the beginning).  Most appear to come from somebody's collection as the person wrote some notes on the back of the NBTHK envelopes. 

 

I'm looking for thoughts on some pieces that sold.  I am not knowledgeable enough to discern if what they sold for was reasonable or not.  Most of the pieces in the auction had NBTHK Hozon papers, so I'm assuming the prices were within the range of their value.  I'm just trying to increase my knowledge and learn what stood out as good and bad. 

 

Pieces I am curious about:

 

https://historical.h...al-3-/a/6291-40008.s

 

https://historical.h...al-2-/a/6291-40004.s

 

https://historical.h...al-2-/a/6291-40007.s

 

https://historical.h...shira/a/6291-40013.s

 

 

The 10 pieces were all at the beginning of the auction so if you want to see everything, you don't have to scroll down:  https://historical.h...ViewOfAuction-081817

 

Any input would be appreciated.

 

--Charles

[Brian]

Prices seem a bit high. The items are nice, but in a price bracket where someone can easily find a host of other items.
I find the notes there a bit curious.
"This item's owner is actively responding to (though not necessarily routinely accepting) offers. Most owners in this category are still actively buying, and therefore interested only in offers where they can net (after our 10% fee) an amount sufficiently above today's market value. Owners in this category seldom counter-offer, and will usually simply reject offers placed at current auction values or lower"

[PNSSHOGUN]

Complicated way of saying the owner is ignoring the market and wants a big pay day.

[Geraint]

Dear Charles.

 

By contrast I wish I was within reach, a papered daisho in koshirae for that money?  Not to mention the Daido blade and koshirae.  Oh well.  I'll just have to keep looking.

 

Welcome and all the best.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately I cannot see any prices for the items?

[Geraint]

Dear Jussi.

 

If you view the individual links there are some prices in terms of what one might offer the seller...........  or do these not show for you?.

 

All the best.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Oh I did not understand that you could buy these, I thought they were sold at auction? So you could make an offer to the person who bought them? I see a price or more but I didn't get that someone just bought an item and would immidiately flip it.

 

For me it shows:

Sold on Jun 10, 2024 for: Sign-in or Join (free & quick)

 

The Norimitsu does not show any buy price. As I would look into that item.

 

Notice also wrong information in the descriptions. For daishō the text says about Wakizashi that it has ubu nakago with signature Kanesada, while in reality it is mumei blade with Fujishiro attribution Sue-Seki.

 

[DigitalSpace]

4 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Oh I did not understand that you could buy these, I thought they were sold at auction? So you could make an offer to the person who bought them? I see a price or more but I didn't get that someone just bought an item and would immidiately flip it.

 

For me it shows:

Sold on Jun 10, 2024 for: Sign-in or Join (free & quick)

 

The Norimitsu does not show any buy price. As I would look into that item.

 

Notice also wrong information in the descriptions. For daishō the text says about Wakizashi that it has ubu nakago with signature Kanesada, while in reality it is mumei blade with Fujishiro attribution Sue-Seki.

 

 

Sorry, I should've explained Heritage a little better it seems.  Heritage held the auction on 6/10.  After the auction concludes, they automatically put that blurb on the right about taking offers.  It's a way to generate more sales on their end.  I have automatically received offers (very low) for previous items I've won on their site.  I can see how it may help some as it keeps the parties anonymity to generate a sale while protecting both since Heritage guarantees the item.  

 

I have cookies in my browser from other Heritage sessions, so that may be why I can see the prices.  In case anybody has trouble getting the prices for the links I gave, here they are:

 

An Attractive Signed Shinto Japanese Samurai Sword Wakizashi Or O'Tanto By Daido - $2,750.00 includes Buyer's Premium

 

A Finely Mounted Japanese Samurai Sword Katana Signed Norimitsu $3,000.00 includes Buyer's Premium

 

A Handsome Handachi Mounted Japanese Samurai Sword Daisho [Katana and Wakizashi] $5,125.00 includes Buyer's Premium

 

A Fine Shakudo and Gold Decorated Edo Period Fuchi Kashira $875.00 includes Buyer's Premium

 

If you click on the pics, they will enlarge and you can zoom in.  Still, not the best lighting for blades.  I didn't trust too much of the descriptions.  Thankfully, they did post pics of the NBTHK papers.

 

One of the reasons I'm asking for thoughts on these sales is that 99% of this auction was US focused on the War of 1812, Civil War, and WWII.  Many of the Japanese items didn't even generate bids till somebody started (the O'Tanto by Daido was the exception and I believe its starting bid was around $1300).  My knowledge on the condition of these blades is beginner level (I've read more history than how to evaluate, but I'm working on it ), so I'm curious if they prices are in line with their values, or if they are low due to people in the auction not knowing enough about them.  In the past, I've participated in auctions where I got very good deals because there would be a few items that weren't really in line with what the auction was focused on.

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Ah now I understand. In general I personally have 0 trust towards auction houses. I dislike their business model in general.

 

For example the description of Norimitsu is completely wrong. Of course I am limited to phone but I zoomed images and it seems to be ubu mumei with 1 hole. Description says 2 holes ubu signed Norimitsu. And blade is not papered only koshirae.

 

I think the Daido package is the best of the bunch but none of these items are interesting for me personally. I would skip the items but I am not really a buyer in general. So others will be able to give more "real life" perspective.

[DigitalSpace]

13 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Ah now I understand. In general I personally have 0 trust towards auction houses. I dislike their business model in general.

 

For example the description of Norimitsu is completely wrong. Of course I am limited to phone but I zoomed images and it seems to be ubu mumei with 1 hole. Description says 2 holes ubu signed Norimitsu. And blade is not papered only koshirae.

 

I think the Daido package is the best of the bunch but none of these items are interesting for me personally. I would skip the items but I am not really a buyer in general. So others will be able to give more "real life" perspective.

 

Thank you for the information as it is indeed helpful!

 

I do agree with you regarding auction houses.  They usually take about 20-35% from the seller and then at least another 20% from the buyer (as in this case).  That said, I've found some unbelievable deals over the years if you know what you're bidding on.  You can win a really nice item for a fraction of its value all because it had an inaccurate description and the bidders at the time weren't knowledgeable enough.  On the other hand, sometimes an auction is filled with people who just bid prices way up beyond the value of the items.  It's a very hit or miss thing - most of the time a miss.  I would never bid in an auction without full knowledge of what I was bidding on.

 

 

 

 

[Ironheart]

Don't feel too bad, I am one of the buyers who bought the Tanto from that auction on an impulse buy ( stupid too ).  Once picking it up, I was not too happy with it.  ( I picked up some decent blades in the past about 5 years ago) My daughter who was learning Kenjutsu ( she quit, she was 13 years old ) wanted to buy her own and ended up with a Tachi.  A few days after she bought it the owners tried to buy it back at twice the amount, she said no, then offered 3 times the amount, she said no each time. I have not checked their history yet and I am new to this site as of an hour ago.   ( since my health is rapidly declining I am needing to inventory all of my art collection etc. I did sell a Bronze last month via Heritage and just placed 3 paintings up for the August Illustration art auction. )  

[Ironheart]

I am more of the expert in the Art aspect of collecting with over 400 original paintings and bronzes. I need to document them since my memory is also fading ( F-ing meds)   In 1996 I lost in a fire 80 percent of my total collection of Historical Items, Feudal Japan armor etc. WW2 items, antiques, antique motorcycle jackets and Fine art, well just eclectic stuff.  I am now in the process of documenting what I have left to either auction off or leave in Trust for my daughter when she gets old.  The BP at Heritage is 20 %  and if you have purchased items from Heritage in the past and sell it through them then it is a 10% commission.  Otherwise its 20 percent buyer's premium for both the buyer and seller.    I have landed some great artworks if you know what to look for and pay attention.  A lot of times there are sellers who inherited pieces and are clueless, some art is not bought and you can make a Post Auction Offer at less than the auction starting point.  I had that deal with a famous Bronze by John Wade Hampton's  " Turning the Leader"  which goes at 15k  He was the founder of the Cowboy Artist Association.  No one offered to buy it and I made a post auction offer and got it so cheap. Then people kept trying to buy it.....until I was offered twice what I paid and sold it last month.  Also about 4 years ago there was a lot of 8 pieces and I noticed that it was only listed as American Artist which had 4 Prints and 4 originals but no one noticed that one of the originals was a James Bama. It was not even identified in the sale. So I was praying no one noticed it.....I got for all 8 less than a few thousand.  The James Bama is worth more than 10k alone, there are two other originals are also worth in the same range combined.  So yes, if you pay attention you can grab some great pieces.   I learned from some Corporate Collectors of what they invest in and the top items are Precious metals, Art and Real Estate.

[Ironheart]

Here is what has become the problem in all Auctions even with Sleaze Bay are shill bidders who intentionally bid against you to raise the price point.  E butt has done nothing to stop all the illegal activity on their site which also has counterfeit product.   Heritage, Sotheby, Rock Island and other high end market item are subjected to serious lawsuits/ Class Action Lawsuits if any fraud is discovered.   A few times in the past there has been the passing of fake NGC, PCGC, CGC along with coins that were not well scrutinized that came back to haunt them.   Most of everything collectable these days are being counterfeited in China-even the grading systems marks and packaging.  Go to any Coin retailer and they can show you how to identify the counterfeits.  Even silver and gold coins up to bullion are being faked.  It is on a level that is surreal.  I would never buy anything from any mom and pop shops, or flea markets.  30 years or more ago you could find great deals...that is rare now because the counterfeiting has become so massive that it has damaged the enjoyment of collecting.

[DigitalSpace]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:32 PM, Ironheart said:

I am more of the expert in the Art aspect of collecting with over 400 original paintings and bronzes. I need to document them since my memory is also fading ( F-ing meds)   In 1996 I lost in a fire 80 percent of my total collection of Historical Items, Feudal Japan armor etc. WW2 items, antiques, antique motorcycle jackets and Fine art, well just eclectic stuff.  I am now in the process of documenting what I have left to either auction off or leave in Trust for my daughter when she gets old.  The BP at Heritage is 20 %  and if you have purchased items from Heritage in the past and sell it through them then it is a 10% commission.  Otherwise its 20 percent buyer's premium for both the buyer and seller.    I have landed some great artworks if you know what to look for and pay attention.  A lot of times there are sellers who inherited pieces and are clueless, some art is not bought and you can make a Post Auction Offer at less than the auction starting point.  I had that deal with a famous Bronze by John Wade Hampton's  " Turning the Leader"  which goes at 15k  He was the founder of the Cowboy Artist Association.  No one offered to buy it and I made a post auction offer and got it so cheap. Then people kept trying to buy it.....until I was offered twice what I paid and sold it last month.  Also about 4 years ago there was a lot of 8 pieces and I noticed that it was only listed as American Artist which had 4 Prints and 4 originals but no one noticed that one of the originals was a James Bama. It was not even identified in the sale. So I was praying no one noticed it.....I got for all 8 less than a few thousand.  The James Bama is worth more than 10k alone, there are two other originals are also worth in the same range combined.  So yes, if you pay attention you can grab some great pieces.   I learned from some Corporate Collectors of what they invest in and the top items are Precious metals, Art and Real Estate.

 

First, sorry about the loss of art.  I've been there with a fire as well and lost a considerable number of vintage animation cels.  Two months back I was able to find a cel from a sequence that was lost in the fire.  First one I found that was close and it took me 23 years to find it. 

 

What you say in this post is very accurate in that you can find great deals at auction IF you have the knowledge.  This is why I started this thread as I'm trying to learn more about collecting old Japanese weapons and armor. 

[DigitalSpace]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:58 PM, Ironheart said:

Here is what has become the problem in all Auctions even with Sleaze Bay are shill bidders who intentionally bid against you to raise the price point.  E butt has done nothing to stop all the illegal activity on their site which also has counterfeit product.   Heritage, Sotheby, Rock Island and other high end market item are subjected to serious lawsuits/ Class Action Lawsuits if any fraud is discovered.   A few times in the past there has been the passing of fake NGC, PCGC, CGC along with coins that were not well scrutinized that came back to haunt them.   Most of everything collectable these days are being counterfeited in China-even the grading systems marks and packaging.  Go to any Coin retailer and they can show you how to identify the counterfeits.  Even silver and gold coins up to bullion are being faked.  It is on a level that is surreal.  I would never buy anything from any mom and pop shops, or flea markets.  30 years or more ago you could find great deals...that is rare now because the counterfeiting has become so massive that it has damaged the enjoyment of collecting.

 

Counterfeits truly have gotten out of hand.  On top of what you mentioned above, there is a huge counterfeit market for WWII memorabilia out of Poland.  You can find a large number of "fake" WWII items on eBay - especially timepieces.  The worst part about that is that they are taking actual antique watches and printing markings on them to sell them as military issued.  They ruin the value of the antique timepieces for collectors who would find value in them so they can sell to uninformed buyers.