Masamori vs Masayoshi

[Bruce Pennington]

Same guy, named changed over time?  If they were different guys, I wonder about the kao.  One is really blurry, but they seem to be the same.

[Bruce Pennington]

Bumping this one.  @mecox - any knowledge of this Masamori?  I've seen that they are not the same guy, so ..... why the same kokuin?

 

Updating my question on the kokuin, though, they are different.  I've found more Masayoshi kokuin and the bottom kanji in the stamp has a vertical line that goes all the way through, where it doesn't on the Masamori:

 

 

Although, after saying that, I did find one that seems to not go all the way through, just like the Masamori one. 

 

Can anyone recognize the kanji in the stamps?  Maybe it's a slogan or Buddhist term?

[Toryu2020]

Bruce

the kokuin reads ホソ川　or Hosokawa used by Masayoshi and his students…

[Bruce Pennington]

26 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Bruce

the kokuin reads ホソ川　or Hosokawa used by Masayoshi and his students…

That's great, Thomas!  Any idea what the "Hosokawa" referred to?  Google gets me modern manufacturing company and the ancient Hosokawa samurai clan.  Do you know what it meant in this case?

[Toryu2020]

Masayoshi's family name no relation to the Daimyo or the manufacturing company...

[oli]

Hosokawa is the school name, from Swordsmith from Japan (Markus Sesko): 

MASAMORI (正守), Bunkyū (文久, 1861-1864), Musashi – “Sakuyō-shi Minamoto Masamori” (作陽士源正守),

“Sakuyō bakka-shi Hosokawa Masamori kore o tsukuru” (作陽幕下士細川正守造之, “made by the bakufu retainer

Hosokawa Masamori of Mimasaka province”), “Sakushū Tsuyama-hanshi Masamori” (作州津山藩士正守, “Masamori,

retainer of the Tsuyama fief of Mimasaka province”), real name Hosokawa Sennosuke (細川仙之助), son of the 2nd

gen. Hosokawa Masayoshi (細川正義), he worked from Edo for the Tsuyama fief (津山藩) of Mimasaka province, he

is counted as 3rd gen. Masayoshi, we know blades from the Kōka (弘化, 1844-1848) to the Meiji era (明治, 1868-1912),

he used the same koku´in seal as Masayoshi, chūjō-saku

Edited February 5 by oli

[Bruce Pennington]

Great stuff guys thank you! I will amend the annotation for this one in my stamps document.

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, oli said:

Hosokawa is the school name

Oliver,

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, so still working this out - His real name is Hosokawa Sennosuke.  So isn't that the source of his stamp, not a school?  The WWII Masayohsi was also named Hosokawa:

"MASAYOSHI (正義), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tochigi – “Yashū-jū Hosokawa Masayoshi” (埜州住細川正義), real name Hosokawa Shigeo (細川重雄), he studied under his father Hosokawa Masamitsu (細川正光), he was the 7th gen. after the 1st gen. Hosokawa Ryōsuke Masayoshi (細川良助正義) who was active around Kyōwa (享和, 1801-1804) (see picture right)"

 

Also, I see the 1800s Masayoshi used different kanji for Hosokawa - 細川 - yet used the same kanji in the kao as Masayoshi did - 埜州.  Complete mystery to me.

[oli]

Hi Bruce,

 

not sure what you looking for. Maybe he changed the Kanji in Showa times, i am not a Kanji expert. Maybe others could help. I think maybe there is a failure in the book, 7th/8th generation i think a bit too much, the 3rd generation worked until Meiji time period. 

 

Regards

Oli

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks @oli.  I just like to understand things.  

I wish I had recorded the source of the one Masamori kokuin I have on file.  I've been unsuccessful in finding it again.  So, I don't know if it was on an 1800s blade or a WWII blade.  Either way, it seems quite unexpected to see two smiths, who happen to have Hosokawa in their real names, just coincidentally creating a kokuin based of the same name.  In the world of kokuin use, it wasn't a common practice in the first place.  So to have 2 guys living in different parts of the country by chance creating the same kokuin is just wild.  But, it is what it is.

 

Thanks for putting up with my questions, guys!  Enjoying it all.

[oli]

I think they are connected , but the Showa Masayoshi moved in another part of the country. Not uncommon, after the end of the shogunate. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Mal must be busy, or has nothing on these guys. Oh MAL, where ARE you *sing-song sounding*? @mecox

[Lawrence_Lee]

Hi Bruce, I totally understand the confusion! It does look like a wild coincidence, but in the Japanese sword-making tradition, this is actually a very structured practice called Shūmei (襲名, Succession of Names). It wasn’t a coincidence that two guys named Hosokawa used the same name/seal; it’s because they belonged to the same lineage. The WWII smith (7th Gen) was the direct professional descendant of the 1800s smith (1st/2nd Gen). In this culture, inheriting the "Brand Name" (Masayoshi) and the family "Seal" (Kokuin) was a way to show legitimacy and honor the founder. 

 

As for your question regarding the specific Kanji in the Kokuin: as a native Chinese speaker, I would describe this as a highly stylised or artistic form of Zhuanshu (Seal Script). It is quite difficult to pinpoint the exact character it originates from just by looking at the strokes, though I suspect it could be "義" (Sometime the '我' part was written in a separate way, as the picture below shows). However, based on my experience with Chinese seal carving, the minor variations in detail you pointed out don't necessarily constitute a different character or identity. In this context, they are effectively the same Kokuin. Given that this functioned much like a Family Crest, it is not surprising at all that Masamori would use it even before officially inheriting the Masayoshi name. 

 

Regarding the different form of writing the first Kanja of Hosokawa, the one has a '糸' on its side is a very ancient way of writing it in China. The '小' part was simplified into three dots sometimes, so it was consequently written as '細'. Therefore, they are the same Kanja in fact. However, when Japanese was being standardised during the Meiji Restoration, the '糸' version was designated as the sole official form, which is likely what caused this distinction.

 

Lastly, I've sent some messages to your facebook account about the Mantetsu survey (it was that survey led me to this post in fact), I'd appreciate it if you can have look whenever you are available.

 

 

 

 

https://meitou.info/index.php/細川正義#i8e2d584
https://tokka.biz/sword/masamori.html

 

 

[Lawrence_Lee]

To address Oli's point about the number of generations: in the Japanese Shūmei tradition, the 'Family' functions simultaneously as a bloodline and a professional School. When a highly skilled apprentice is chosen to succeed the master, they are often formally adopted into the family (a practice known as Yoshi-engumi).

Therefore, the name 'Hosokawa' represents a continuous professional lineage where the 'surname' acts as a brand of the school. Spanning five generations (from the 2nd to the 7th) over roughly 150 years is mathematically sound, averaging 30 years per successor. This allows the lineage to maintain its identity and 'Seal' even when there is no direct biological heir.

[oli]

9 minutes ago, Lawrence_Lee said:

To address Oli's point about the number of generations: in the Japanese Shūmei tradition, the 'Family' functions simultaneously as a bloodline and a professional School. When a highly skilled apprentice is chosen to succeed the master, they are often formally adopted into the family (a practice known as Yoshi-engumi).

Therefore, the name 'Hosokawa' represents a continuous professional lineage where the 'surname' acts as a brand of the school. Spanning five generations (from the 2nd to the 7th) over roughly 150 years is mathematically sound, averaging 30 years per successor. This allows the lineage to maintain its identity and 'Seal' even when there is no direct biological heir.

Thanks for your explanation, i was confused because the Showa Masayoshi would be the 8th Generation. The 3rd Generation worked until Mejin, let say until 1870 for easier math and the Showa Masayoshi worked till end of war 1945. So this would be 5 Generation in 75 years. So it would be about every 15 years a new Smith Generation. 

 

Thanks

Oli

[Lawrence_Lee]

5 minutes ago, oli said:

Thanks for your explanation, i was confused because the Showa Masayoshi would be the 8th Generation. The 3rd Generation worked until Mejin, let say until 1870 for easier math and the Showa Masayoshi worked till end of war 1945. So this would be 5 Generation in 75 years. So it would be about every 15 years a new Smith Generation. 

 

Thanks

Oli

Hi Oli, You’re absolutely right, and I must apologise for my previous oversight: I had initially conflated the 7th and 8th generations as they both practiced during the Showa era. However, looking at the verified timeline, the 2nd Gen was active between 1801 and 1848 (though died in 1858, while the 8th Gen’s career spanned from 1956 to 1989. This leaves a gap of roughly 188 years to be shared among 7 generations. This averages out to about 27 years per generation.
See

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/MAS1402

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/MAS1416

[Bruce Pennington]

On 2/5/2026 at 11:34 AM, oli said:

Masamori,

retainer of the Tsuyama fief of Mimasaka province”), real name Hosokawa Sennosuke (細川仙之助), son of the 2nd

gen. Hosokawa Masayoshi (細川正義),

Excellent information gentlemen thank you. I have to apologize, in all of the information flowing. I totally missed this part of the biography of Masamori!!!  I completely understand now!

 

Thanks for working that out with me. I enjoyed it thoroughly.