Koto or shinto,Suriage or O-suriage

[shan]

Hi,

I have this Tanto 33.5cm approx Nagasa and its a bit of an oddity as the nakago although clearly rusty is also quite clean as it gets towards the Habakimoto.

I am not entirely sure its a Koto blade because of this.

I can see what appears to be the remains of a raised rusty definate Mune for the last 2 inches to the Nakagojiri and the Hamon seems to go straight into the Nakago.

Is this evidence that the whole blade was a lot longer and if so it it possible this is the tip of an older much longer sword?

If so what would it have looked like full length?

Your opinions would be very useful.

regards

Shan

 

 

 

[kusunokimasahige]

Well looking at the top of the nakago pic, this blade has definetely been cleaned at some time and cleaning the nakago is a bad thing.

 

Suriage i do not know, koto is not likely imho.

 

KM

[Brian]

Why would you jump straight to cleaned KM?

All I see is an o-suriage and machi-okuri blade that could be a Koto. Patina is less at the top because it was originally blade material. Could be wrong, but that's what I see.

Likely it was maybe 10cm longer originally. Bottom patina on the nakago is probably the original patina, which is consistent with the rest of the blade.

 

Brian

[shan]

Hello,

Yes very true Brian,

The nakago does not exibit signs of cleaning as there was never the degree of rust near the Habakimoto as there was near the nakago jiri ( if i were to clean the Jiri end it would be pitted and polished off after i finished)and the Yasureme are not affected by a cleaning attempt IHMO.they are still very pronounced and clear to the eye.(but it was a good call from an image KM and not the best images either) But let us first agree that there has been no cleaning as far as i can tell.

I had noted that there is evidence of the mune all the way to the jiri so it may well be O-suriage or perhaps there was a blade made that had a mune shape on the nakago? (but unlikely)

If the blade is O suriage that would make it at the very least a 42cm Nagasa.

Is it possible it was a Koto Wakizashi or are we leaning towards early shinto? Maybe a sunnobi Tanto in the style of a Koto Piece?

Problem is it is to all pretence and purposes a Tanto shaped blade.

regards

Shan

[kusunokimasahige]

Well the colour (patina) of the nakago's side like in picture 2 is too silvery/light in my eyes to be a true old/uncleaned patina. however i might be totally wrong there.

 

If its suriage i cannot see that well either.

 

Could you post a picture of the blistery patch about halfway in picture 1 bottom tanto ?

 

Also without being able to see all cristalline structures in the photos and just from the photos alone i would say shinto and still not koto.

 

If it was the tip of an older sword made into a tanto i am not sure about, since it looks like a normal tanto to me, not even a piece of nagamaki/naginata formed into a tanto.

 

The Hamon going straight into the nakago is a sign it was never reheated nor retempered i think.

 

KM

[shan]

Here are some larger images for you to hopefully judge better

 

http://www.suspended-animation.co.uk/nihonto_page_89.html

 

Many thanks

Shan

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The Hamon going straight into the nakago is a sign it was never reheated nor retempered i think.

 

Henk, generally speaking, think at where the clay is applied during hardening.

The Nakago isn't affected by hardening, so if you find hamon entering (i.e. is present into)

the Nakago the blade is at least machiokuri.

[Mark Green]

Hi Guys,

I'm with Brian, I think that the Nakago was just moved up to get past that big 'goob'.

I feel that is the orig. Nakago past the lighter part. I would say late koto/early shinto, wak./long tanto

Now a bit shorter. I love this style blade!!! Sweet.

Mark G

[Mike]

I am with Mark and Brian, IMHO it looks like it was shortened just to move the flaw, seeh in pic 1, to the nakago area. Possibly late koto Wak. Mike

[shan]

Hi all,

This is great feedback and very very useful ,but i feel that you have all missed the key info here.

The mune continues to the Nakago jiri.

i have used this image to indicate the extent of the work.

It is only filed off for the first 2-3 inches of the nakago,the remaining has been left untouched,is raised and definatly an old part of the mune.

What are your views?

 

 

 

regards

Shan

[Mark Green]

Hi Shan,

The filed area was likely part of the blade. I think that the sword was cut, and the Nakago was moved up past the big crack/ware. This may have been done the last time it was polished, or long ago. But from the look of it, not that long ago.

The sword looks well used, but I sure like the style. May or may not servive a polish????

Mark G

[shan]

Hi All,Very interesting views.

I think because the nakago has evidence of a mune all the way to the tip of the nakago, that the entire nakago was once blade and that it was shortened for some reason, then shortened again after a polish exposed a ware.

Its a guess but i think that the original nakago has long gone and an ancient suriage has remained near the last 2 inches of the nakago and a newer (but still old) suriage has taken place or machiokuri as has already been sugested.

If this is the case, then it was a wakizashi originally and therefore the sugata has altered quite a bit.

I have to wonder at this stage what it would have looked like Ubu and if it is as sugested a sue Bizen older Ko Bizen Blade .

It will survive another polish IMHO as its only flaws are visable and there is "plenty of meat" left yet.But its sashikomi polish shows enough so i will wait for a while on doing it as i have over 12 blades that are qued for Togoshi before this one.

 

many useful points there and if you find anything similar but way longer and Ubu,let me know as i am intrigued.

regards

Shan

[Brian]

Shan,

I don't see mune in the nakago, and not sure why you do. The nakago would never have had a mune ridge if filed back and down a level. If there is a ridge, itis just the way it was finished off. Continue the line along the mune into the nakago and you can see there is no way any original mune can be present there. I feel it is suriage as suggested here, and nothing that much more puzzling than this. I doubt this was a very long hirazukuri wakizashi. More likely a medium length one that was shortened to the present shape.

 

Brian

[shan]

Hi Brian,

If you look to the posted image of the Nakago Back edge (the one on its own)you will see near the jiri a centre line.This is raised like the/a mune is.(live an inverted V)

But i see what you mean the direction of the mune does not line up.

So maybe a mune shaped Edge to the original Nakago then?

Ever hear of a smith that finished the back edge of the Nakago that way?

Very strange.

If you had it in hand you would be guessing as well. Its raised and very like a Mune.

regards

Shan