Possible Goto kozuka?

[Surfson]

I ordered the book of 100 tsuba - a guide to evaluation and appreciation, that someone on NMB had recommended, and really enjoyed going through it.  During that read (or mostly looking at photos and trying to learn some more kanji for the few translated parts), I ran across this page that shows a mitokoromono by Goto Seijo and Eijo.  The image looked very familiar and I realized it was because it reminded me of a kozuka that I have on a wonderfully mounted tanto by Arikoto.  Here are some photos of the page in the book and my kozuka.   Mine is worn (in that wonderful way that ko kinko nanako pieces wear), but the theme is strikingly similar.   Any opinions welcomed.  Cheers, Bob

 

 

[Curran]

Yes.

[Surfson]

You are a man of few words Curran!  By yes, you mean it is likely to be Goto?  Those two guys worked in Muromachi (as stated on the page).   Do you think this one is contemporaneous or maybe made by the same hand?  

[TETSUGENDO]

Hi Robert, I think this perspective makes comparison easier, you piece has a more curvaceous form, and you will note that the fin shapes are quite different, I like yours better.  In contrast the Goto piece is  much more lump-ish and compact.   There are both great similarities, and notable differences...so I'll straddle the fence.   Perhaps another generation of Goto, or not Goto at all, a lot of research needs to be done to answer you query.

 

Best,

  -S-

[Surfson]

Thanks Steven.  Ha, well mine has been "petted" over the years and lost a fair bit of detail (including some loss of uturi on the tail).  The nanako on the set in the book is relatively crisp, whereas mine has been smoothed down quite a bit.  They certainly look more natural in this orientation!  

[Rivkin]

Old kyo-kinko.

 

Kirill R.

[Surfson]

Here it is in the mounts.  Kirill, if you are right, then either the Goto copied a kyo-kinko design or vice versa.  Which is most likely?  

[TETSUGENDO]

Robert, that is a beautiful Tanto, in good state of preservation, nice lacquer work and a lovely set of menuki....they look very promising.   As for your kozuka, my comments were made looking at what it looked like before times gentle caresses.  As I said there are lots of strong similarities, with some distinct differences, before you relegate it to the ko kinko bin, check it out further.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

[Curran]

 I ran across this page that shows a mitokoromono by Goto Seijo and Eijo. 

 

Book says Goto Sojo and Goto Eijo.

Goto Sojo and Goto Seijo are not the same thing and very far apart in time.

Only Goto Sojo is pre 1600s.

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/headGoto.htm

 

I look at your kozuka and think Goto. I lean towards ko-Goto. There are kantei points, but after >$1000 of Goto reference texts and a lot of time to approach it, I am only now getting familiar with them. The very first one I would go to is difficult to observe without some exceptional photos from you. Later this week when I have access to my books, we can PM about what to look for and see if we can see it together.

 

I wouldn't count out Kirill's opinion, as Goto is not the easiest topic.I wouldn't have commented on this thread had I not been focusing on Goto very much these past few months.

The problem with suddenly immersing in it, as that I probably have Goto goggles on now and will slightly over compensate saying Goto, Goto, Goto, whereas last year I would have hesitated to declare Goto.

Still, Keeping It Simple-  my opinion is Goto, maybe ko-Goto.

[Surfson]

Goto goggles, I love it Curran.  I'm not discounting anybody's opinion other than my own.  Thanks for the important Seijo vs Sojo correction.  The muromachi one is the correct one.  If you tell me what to take closeup photos of, I will have a go of it (or a goto of it).  Cheers, Bob

[Surfson]

You are correct about the menuki Steven.   According to the previous owner, testing showed that both the menuki and the habaki are solid gold.

[TETSUGENDO]

The quality is hard to ignore, Robert.  While your checking things out, spend some time on the menuki.  I know this is a Tosogu topic, but I bet everyone would appreciate some shots of the blade.....just to give us the whole picture.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

[Surfson]

Other than apparently being solid gold, I am intrigued by the dragon appearing to be wound twice around his body, the way a snake might be coiled.  I have also noted over the years when a handle wrap his the menuki exteriorized that way, it usually is to show off the special menuki.

[Rivkin]

Robert, without having truly strong knowledge of the early Goto [i am really out of my confidence zone here], quite a lot of originally Goto designs did spread around throughout the Kyoto area, or even the ones with Gempei war went almost everywhere in the kinko community, plus there was an extensive number of waki goto artists... Were this kozuka an exact match (and these things do often exact match to signed pieces), the argument would have been stronger, but since it is not, moreover the differences are clearly such that the artist is most likely a different person (shape of the bottom fins, for example) - it is likely someone of good skill but who worked from a similar general drawing. In this case, my fear is also that extensive condition issues here will prevent any very specific attribution.

To me it looks the early Edo. Kyo kinko in this case is a conservative-general attribution, which could be really anything, and thus a low risk path for anyone cautious. At the same time, someone who is not afraid to be more specific, like Haynes, will likely be more specific and can say "early Goto", but in the end with such extensive wear I just don't know how one can distinguish for sure. 

 

Kirill R.

[Surfson]

Thanks Kirill.  I haven't spoken with Bob Haynes for a decade or two, but maybe I will try to get some photos to him for an opinion.  Cheers, Bob

[Kanenaga]

Bob,

 

By any chance, does the blade have an engraved poem?

 

Les

[Surfson]

That is a good question Les, as Arikoto is known for engraving poetry in his blades as he was a poet as well as sword maker.  Sadly, it doesn't, though it is a beautiful blade in full polish.  I will try to take some photos and get them up here.  Cheers, Bob