Kantei

[paulb]

Dear All,

I wanted to touch on the am subject. Rayhan's extremely generous project sparked a lot of interest and enthusiam. It motivated people who had never tried to do kantei before to have a go. This exercise has been followed by a number of other kantei exercises from Uwe, based on his exceptional images and more latterly with Dwain and his nakago.

As an advocate of the value of kantei I think it is great to see this activity increasing, I think doing kantei properly is the greatest way to learn. The key word here is properly.

The correct way to do kantei is to view a sword in hand, to identify the relevant features and to try and draw a conclusion from what you see. This isn't always possible and the fallback is a Shijo kantei as seen in the NBTHK monthly magazines. Here you are presented with an oshigata which shows shape and hamon, and given a description of the sword. This might be considered a "halfway house" as all the features have been identified for you but if you can't see them there is little choice. In the board kantei people setting the questions (including me) tend to use photographs which obviously show more of the hada but still don't offer the same detail you might expect to see in hand.

My point is that if we are to continue to attempt these exercises on the board, and I really hope we will, we need to supply sufficient information to enable participants to work toward a conclusion. I have copied below the content of an NBTHK kantei description. It gives full details of size and describes hada and activity. Even with some of the excellent images we have seen on the board I think unless you have the sword in hand it is important to have a description of the jigane and activity.

Armed with this information  the study and working toward an answer becomes much more meaningful and we learn a great deal more from it. Without it we are doing little more than guessing, which may be fun but doesn't contribute to our understanding too much.

Please lets continue doing kantei on the board and supporting them when they are posted but can we make sure we supply at least the minimum information needed to make it worthwhile.

NBTHK example:

Doc1.docx

 

 

 

 

[Blazeaglory]

Eventually I was going to show everyone the actual full sword along with the nakago. I was jyst trying to get people to lighten up a little bit. I agree with you tho. But then again trying to do a kantei from pictures is hit or miss and in person would be the best. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word Kantei, as I really just wanted to see if people could determine age from the nakago (considering all everyone says is how big a part the nakago plays in appraisals)

 

Im just thinking we need to relax and see the trees through the forest so to speak. Sometimes I think actual "appreciation" gets lost when people take online Kantei too serious.

[paulb]

Dwain

I wasn't specifically taking a swipe at you, although I used your post as an example of what I was trying to illustrate.

We agree 100% that kantei should be fun and I think those who took part in Rayhan's recent post said they had enjoyed it.

 When done properly it offers a disciplined and effective way to learn. The best lessons should always be fun but should also have  structure 

This approach has been used in Japan as the way to learn. While I am sure it isnt perfect it is better than anything else available to us. 

If we treat it too lightly and without the seriousness it deserves the benefit can be greatly decreased. That doesn't mean it cant be fun!

As in everything else our motivation for doing things are as diverse as we are. The important thing is to base the way we approach doing kantei with a reasonable understanding of what it is about and what we are trying to achieve, and to be clear of the benefits of doing it that way (or not)

[Blazeaglory]

I agree! And I know it wasn't directed towards me (mostly anyways). You know me, I just like to talk! haha

 

I found your information posted very informative! You do bring up many very excellent points

[Jussi Ekholm]

I agree with Paul that for example in NBTHK's monthly kantei details are presented very well.

 

While my own eye is not really that trained I can miss a lot of details in traditional kantei that more experienced pick up in a moment. For me it takes some times a lot of time to see the small details. The good thing is that small details are explained in text form as you cannot actually see the item. So it does not matter how good your own eye is as details are already explained to you.

 

One thing I'd really like to see is lot more measurements as it makes it much easier to understand the item without seeing it. Even though I have no background with anything that involves numbers or measurements I just really like the accurate information they give to you. While you can explain many things by adjectives, they can be understood rather vaguely. Where as if the sword has for example 3,1 cm motohaba or ubu nakago that is 14,5 cm, those are facts. Of course you could try to explain them in words but it is a lot more difficult than just measuring them. I think you can get rather decent image of how the sword actually is by just looking at the numerical data. Heck, with little worded information along to aid the numbers you could draw a possible mock up sword with that data given to you.

[Vermithrax16]

For me, oshigata can be helpful but it's not a good visual aid for me. Others glean way more from them than I do. As time goes on I see examples (online of course) of thousands of swords. It's from that well that I draw a general guess towards a maker. Then I go from there to check other examples, oshigata, etc. I imagine we all do it different.

 

Rayhan's kantei was fun for sure. Those 3 swords were all strange ones and I don't think many here got many of them correct however they go about kantei.

[DRDave]

I think the only way I would have even the slightest chance of getting a smith right would be if it were clearly shinto, sudare-ba, and I could see the first half of the mei.   And although people that do it well have seen tens of thousands of swords over the years, how they do it so quickly?  Eidetic memory?

[paulb]

Hi Dave

Like most things its practice.Over time small details lead you in to an obvious direction. There are of course always exceptions but normally a kantei blade should be representtive of it's period and tradition (otherwise you cant really learn from it) Generally once you get in to practice looking at the shape and dimensions should give you an idea of period. hamon and description of hada points to a tradition/school. After that its a case of hitting the references but at least you have narrowed down the possibilities.

BTW the above is not a claim to expertise its just based on doing it for a long time!!

[Blazeaglory]

I think the only way I would have even the slightest chance of getting a smith right would be if it were clearly shinto, sudare-ba, and I could see the first half of the mei. And although people that do it well have seen tens of thousands of swords over the years, how they do it so quickly? Eidetic memory?

I would think yes. Repetition with sugata, hamon and boshi as well. Then if unsure still, they go into detail

[Blazeaglory]

For me, oshigata can be helpful but it's not a good visual aid for me. Others glean way more from them than I do. As time goes on I see examples (online of course) of thousands of swords. It's from that well that I draw a general guess towards a maker. Then I go from there to check other examples, oshigata, etc. I imagine we all do it different.

 

Rayhan's kantei was fun for sure. Those 3 swords were all strange ones and I don't think many here got many of them correct however they go about kantei.

Once I learn and gather more knowledge, I plan on going to back and looking again to see how well (or not well) I did????

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

One of the very first nihonto articles given to me by a fellow study club member/mentor was on the topic of how to appreciate a Japanese Sword, it was about kantei. One of the most important articles on kantei I've read was written by Sato sensei in the NBTHK Journals (English), which was about an often overlooked step in kantei, that of judging quality. Two of the essential and most important additions to a nihonto sword library are volumes on sword kantei. Based on this alone, it is safe to conclude that nihonto appreciation and kantei are one in the same. Kantei, sword appreciation, is what sets the path that we as collectors end up following, in some cases for decades of our lives. 

 

Participation in kantei is voluntary, meaning that anyone can participate at the level they're comfortable with ranging from attending more formal events to simply being a quiet/silent participant through observation on an online activity. So, one can be as serious or not serious about having 'fun' as they like.

 

On the subject of fun, fun in the teaching/learning world is not an objective, and I will leave it at that.

 

One additional comment. Perhaps the most dreaded fear of nihonto collectors on all levels is finding out after the fact that they have made a serious blunder in their purchase at worst, and/or learning that the nihonto they purchased isn't all they thought it was or at least should have known before hand.  Too seriously, hmm.