Earlier blade in army mounts. What do I have?

[Guest reinhard]

Harvey,

Forget about this particular sword. Your interest seems to be genuine though.

 

reinhard

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Guido said:

We shouldn't waste our time studying mass produced swords of the Bakumatsu, and especially ShÅwa, periods - there's nothing to be learned from them if our goal is appreciation of true NihontÅ.

That's a tad dismissive Guido, don't you think?. In all fairness, you have had access to fine blades which many NMB members are never likely to see. The later swords are certainly the most easily available to the majority of European students and it's rather like saying "don't bother studying fine art unless you can actually handle a Van Gogh or Da Vinci". If an art critic made such a statement, I'm fairly sure they would be accused of elitism.

 

Nice definition of a yokote though - I stand thoroughly corrected. Thanks.

[Guido]

That's a tad dismissive Guido, don't you think?

Not only a "tad", would I think ... OTOH, you're starting to put words in my mouth .... :?

 

The vast majority of swords made in the ShÅwa era are mass produced, non-traditional weapons of no artistic merit. We therefore use the term "Showa-tÅ" to distinguish them from GendaitÅ, of which quite a few fine examples are around from the same period of time. ShÅwa-tÅ are of course of interest to militaria collectors - nothing wrong with that field of collecting - but they don't show any of the qualities we're looking for in a true NihontÅ (with the possible exception of shape).

 

I think most of us are here on this board to study and understand why NihontÅ are such a unique art form. Reading, discussing, examining, and studying are an essential though happy regimen for graduation to connoisseurship. We only can achieve this if we look at blades above the "weapon's grade" level.

 

Unfortunately a big part of Western collections are blades produced by unimportant smiths, showing lots of forging faults, nondescript in form, Hada and Hamon, or just boring, because "weapons of Japanese origin" were collected instead of "art swords". All the swords of this lowest level are of course not to be classified accordingly, since the marks of schools, times, provinces or even masters can only be suspected. Certainly many of these blades show a kind of "quality"; it is even possible when looking at and examining the blade intensively that certain few details can be called beautiful or perfect, but nevertheless one should be advised against being occupied with blades of such a low level since bad swords spoil the eyes.

The later swords are certainly the most easily available to the majority of European students ...

I beg to differ. Europe has probably the highest density of important NihontÅ outside Japan. Many fine examples can be studied at the regular meetings of the European branch of the NBTHK. And the US has a NBTHK branch, too. And not a few local sword clubs. And a couple of sword shows a year, where one can attend lectures and study close up swords of JÅ«yÅ Bijutsuhin rank.

 

But rather than spending relatively little money and time on attending these meetings/shows, and buying good books on the subject, people spend double or triple that amount on buying "non-NihontÅ" off eBay just because they are available and/or affordable, and then they come to this forum asking "what is it?" If I'm into race cars but can't (or don't want to) afford one, do I buy three rusty Honda Civics without wheels instead, and then "study" them to find out what makes a high-performance car, and how a turbo loader works?

 

Quite frankly, saying that one can't study quality NihontÅ in Europe is an insult to our host Brian and others like him who live in a NihontÅ vacuum. That didn't stop him, and others in remote locations, to travel to Japan and look at as many swords and fittings as their time permitted. I wouldn't call any of those I met so far "rich" (except, of course, Rich Turner ) (sorry, guys, I hope I didn't offend anybody), so I guess they had to sacrifice other desires in order to do this. No pain, no gain.

In all fairness, you have had access to fine blades which many NMB members are never likely to see.

That is probably true, and I hope I don't appear like I was rubbing it in, that certainly isn't my intention. But then again, no angel appeared in the middle of the night, carrying me in his arms to the Motherland of NihontÅ, and gave me all the sword knowledge I could ask for.

 

I pity people whose dream is fly-fishing, but live in a desert. If they're not able to travel to where the trout are found, it would be cruel to tell them to put some gold fish in their bath tub because that's almost as good. And they would be incredibly stupid if they actually did just that. Some things are not meant to be, and *yes*, life sucks.

... and it's rather like saying "don't bother studying fine art unless you can actually handle a Van Gogh or Da Vinci".

No, what I'm saying is "don't bother studying fine art by looking at paint-by-numbers".

If an art critic made such a statement' date=' I'm fairly sure they would be accused of elitism.[/quote']If my opinion makes me an elitist, so be it. I can live with that label. Comfortably. I'm not on a mission to convince the entire world to subscribe to my point of view, but am also not too shy to speak my mind for fear of stepping on some toes.

 

Don't get me wrong, Simon: I respect you, I like reading your posts, and I enjoy your company at our NMB gatherings. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this topic. No hard feelings on my side, and I hope none on yours.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

No hard feelings at all Guido.

 

By way of atonement, do you have any vintage cars you want me to wash for you?

("Wax on, wax off, Daniel-san")

 

Simon

 

PS my final thread "A farewell to arms" is not referring to you (although it does use the word "elitist" again).

[Brian]

I think Guido is correct. You don't study inferior swords to learn about top quality blades. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there that collect militaria and Showa-to etc, and we do try and assist with identification and translations since there aren't many places to go for this info. But we don't study those swords in depth. Guido assists like many of the members here, in trying to identify what is the good stuff from the bad blades, and we try and help people to get to a point where they can identify what is worth keeping and restoring, and what might just be a representative piece.

The idea is to use the forum as a basis for expanding your knowledge. Get out there and look at the best you have access to. Use books and the internet to guide you, but make sure you see as much as you can in hand. As Guido pointed out, there is always somewhere you can go to see some good swords..or keep studying until the opportunity presents itself.

I don't believe it is elitist to say that you should strive to collect the best you can..or at least see it sometime and gain an understanding of what it is all about.

The keyword is "study"

This forum will continue to assist those who are starting out, or only have lower end stuff. We can assist in deciding if it is a fake, or what the mei says, or whether or not it has fatal flaws, or if it is a possible sleeper. We just draw the line at studing them in depth. We won't discuss the beauty of a machine made Gunto. You might get info on what it is, and what it says, and who made it (all in the appropriate sections of course) but I think that to explain why it isn't a good Nihonto collectors item is vital to furthering the study of Nihonto. I don't think we should mistake elitism for bluntness. Sometimes stating the facts is the easiest way to bring the point home. This doesn't mean genuine elitism will be tolerated, but I dont think we have a problem with that, and when it does occur, then it is dealt with.

To get back to this particular thread, the OP was wondering if it had any merit as a possible restoration project. In the end, good advice was given and he decided against it. Perhaps the next person to come across something similar will remember this thread and have learned something. Asking before buying is an important part of what we are preaching here. The rest is up to people to take that advice and learn from it.

 

Brian

[drbvac]

By jove I think you're correct Harvey, amazing what the board gets on about and it is often something as harmless as what do you think - Nothing like a good discussion to let the rest of us learn a thing or two even if the conclusion is less than definitive@

[Brian]

Just went back through this thread, and noticed a post or 2 that I seem to have missed.

I will caution everyone to be careful what they state and how they state it. Case in point:

Fake: - On this forum it will refer to a sword that has no connection to Japanese manufacture at all, or one that has been made up to look like something it is not. A bad condition Nihon-to is not a fake. It is a bad condition Nihon-to. A bad condition Kamakura-era tachi is not a fake because someone has let it rust and messed with the polish. Togishi have brought back remarkable swords before. A shin-gunto is not a fake. It is a machine made Japanese sword. Even if the mounts are messed with and switched for poor quality originals on a genuine blade, the sword isn't a fake.

Fake infers that it is not traditionally made, and was made to deceive. A gunto can have an older nakago welded on to appear to be a Koto, but then that should be indicated in the description.

There can be fine lines which we can (and should) easily clarify in describing them, but let's not start using the word fake unless it is in the commonly-understood context. This hobby is difficult enough without complicating things further. It is easy enough to type a few extra lines and explain what we mean sometimes, and it save us a few pages of meandering discussion that is not always necessary.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Guido wrote :

 

I pity people whose dream is fly-fishing, but live in a desert

 

As a fly fisherman who gives freely his time and experience to teach others (even to elders) casting and fishing, I tell you not to pity them, my friend, but envy them , for being able to do it reveals a capacity of abstraction that few can achieve :D :D :D

 

In fact, it is much like love, the excitment always precede the conquest but seldom comes after

[paulb]

Spoken like a true Frenchman Jean!!

We English have always eliminated such thoughts of love and excitement with cold showers!!

[Guest reinhard]

Fake infers that it ..... was made to deceive.

Brian

 

Assembling devastated pieces and "painting" an artificial Hamon is what I call a fake. It has nothing to do with Nihon-To anymore; no matter where it is coming from.

 

As to Guido's post: Should be printed, framed and understood.

 

reinhard

[Bungo]

Actually there's nothing wrong being an " elitist ", we all are in more ways than one.

Now there's the difference in " attitude ", sort of like Liona Hemsley rich and Warren Buffet rich................

 

one said " only little people pay taxes " while the other says " we don't need the tax cut for those who don't need it, put the money to good use for the poor " ( something along that line )

 

While ( sorry, euro/usd joke coming your way again ) the " strong usd policy " of the current administration does not place me in either " rich " catagory, if I were rich, I would rather be " warren rich " than " Hemsley rich ".

 

 

Milt

[Bungo]

" In fact, it is much like love, the excitment always precede the conquest but seldom comes after "

 

I'll risk an warning..............

yoo, secret agent man, that's not exactly true, not after you got first Carla, then the two boys from me. I am positive they'll give you pleasures for years to come.

 

milt

[Brian]

I have absolutely no idea where your mind goes sometimes Milt. Is there a Milt to English translation on Babelfish somewhere? :lol: :D

Ok..'nuff of the OT now thanks folks.

 

Brian

[Bungo]

I have absolutely no idea where your mind goes sometimes Milt. Is there a Milt to English translation on Babelfish somewhere? :lol: :D

Ok..'nuff of the OT now thanks folks.

 

Brian

we gave names to our favorites.......

Like Carla has a moon with a killer patina etc.

 

with permission ( I hope will be granted ) from the new owner...... I give you Carla's moon

 

milt