Please your opinion about this "kaneie school " ts

[yogoro]

Dear members !

 

Last time I Bought this two kaneie like tsuba.

I think , this middle-late Edo copy .

What do you think ?

Mikolaj

[Pete Klein]

Hi Yogoro -- Yes, I would say your opinion is correct as to these being later work. Kaneiye was very highly copied in the Meiji era and there was also the Saga Kaneiye School which was an offshoot of the first two master's work, which produced works for an undetermined number of generations. Torigoye in his work with Robert Haynes, 'Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study' (taken from Tsuba Geijutsu-Ko by Torigoye) postulates that when the first two Kaneiye lived, (the first referred to as 'Dai Shodai Kaneiye' ~Eiroku to Tensho 1558 - 1592 and the second referred to as 'Meijin Shodai Kaneiye' from ~Tensho to Keicho 1573 - 1615), their works appealed to the Daimyo and samurai of higher ranks as they were a bit austere and closer to the earlier works produced in the Ashikaga Jidai. As the Edo Jidai unfolded the Kinko became predominate and these works by Kaneiye (and of Nobuie to a degree) were put away by those of higher rank and really were not that available (if at all) to the masses to see. As the glimmer of the Kinko tired later in Edo there was a movement to restore the older ways (around Temmei 1781 - 1789) and as the merchant classes were becoming dominant and had great wealth available to spend these earlier works came out of hiding to great acclaim. There were a great number of copies made and also signatures added to earlier works (Torigoye mentions old Nara pieces) and also many pieces made for the export market during the Meiji Restoration.

There are so few actual first or second generation works in existence they are pretty much impossible to find for sale anywhere and if one does come to market it would go for sums not to be believed. As with the works of Goto Yujo they were recognized early on as masterpieces and set aside by the nobility so they are very rarely found today (although once in awhile one does pop up).

[John A Stuart]

Hi, As Pete points out not Dai or Mejin, although these mei are a copy of the Mejin Shodai Kanieye's signature, which excludes the Dai Shodai anyway. Of the Kanieye II tsuba I have pics of, the work is very refined and those with mountains have rounded shapes not so craggy. One of the kantei points is the fineness of carving in figures features. The work of the first example you show is good work but not at the level exhibited by Kanieye I or II. The steel of the first example looks decidely later, very homogenous. The second examples steel looks more unrefined, what colour is it? Nice tsuba showing good work of later school products. John

[Pete Klein]

Here's an example of the Meijin's work:

[Pete Klein]

ura:

[Rich T]

to here I think. The image Pete posted tells us a lot I think.

 

Both tsuba are late copies I believe. Looking through Tanse Kaneie, the first tsuba posted here has a mei that is typical of later Kaneie copies with the top of the Kane kanji pointed and not rounded. I cannot make out all of the seconds tsuba's mei so I cannot offer anything there.

 

Now, mei's aside, looking at the work of the second tsuba, the mountains are too sharp and stiff, and are not soft and rounded at all like that of the Meijin's work. The plate in the first is as John points out, very homognous, and the second tsuba's plate looks late and Aizu shoami or something similar to me. Both pictorials and too 'cramped' in my opinion and not at all balanced like the genuine Kaneie. The real Kanei designs are subtle and are balanced with the tsuba's overall shape and feel.

 

Kaneie tsuba, along with Nobuie must some of the most copied tsuba in existence I think. In both cases, the genuine and the copies are like chalk and cheese, they a miles apart in quality. When you get to hold a real one in your hands, you will know it.

 

Just my thoughts for this morning.

 

Richard