Information sought on my wakizashi

[nagamaki - Franco]

hi, since the questions are objective I'm going to try and give this a go ....., feel free to add or subtract as I'm sure my response is in no way definitive.

 

hamon vs yakiba?

 

Hamon refers to the pattern of the quenching, which can be described as either a suguha (straight) or midare (irregular) or some combination of both. The hamon itself can be described as having certain characteristics such as being sugu-notare (slightly undulating) or sugu-hotsure (like a frayed yarn) or it can be midare and have togari-ba (pointed peaks as seen in sanbonsugi) or gonome (rounded tops often with ashi (legs)).

 

Yakiba is essentially the quenched area between the hamon and the actual cutting edge. The Yakiba may contain activity (Hataraki) like ashi, inazuma, sunagashi, etc., or lack there of.

 

 

Nioiguchi:The part of the nioi line next to the ji. AFU

 

Fairly self explanatory, the actual nioi line that creates the border line between the yakiba and ji (area of the hada).

 

Habuchi: or Borderline between the ji and the yakiba. AFU

 

again, self explanatory.

 

Habuchi can be made up of nioi as seen in Bizen or Mino, it can also be made up of ko nie as seen in Yamashiro swords, or mostly nie as seen in Soshu and Yamato.

 

The following link offers images of swords and their "hamon" & "yakiba"which can be seen fairly clearly. When there is real nioi or nie present with appropriate lighting the reflective nature seen in the images is unmistakable.

http://www.nona.dti.ne.jp/~sword/katana.htm click on a sword and then scroll down to the lower images.

 

Despite the fact that most of this may seem pretty straight forward, because we're often looking at marginal images on a screen rather than having a sword in hand, things can become sketchy very quickly if not careful. An excellent polisher can fool even the best of collectors into believing they're seeing a real hamon sometimes, not to mention the inexperienced beginner.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

are we seeing the hamon like we usually call it, or are we seeing the yakiba?

 

Guess the problem is the possibility to watch at a cosmetic "hamon" made by polisher(?) instead

of a really hardened edge, edge that itself might also be just oil quenched being of no real

interest. Bad pictures/conditions of the blade doesn't help a lot in judgement.

 

To avoid any misundertanding and strumentaaization I have to add that my statement is

just a general suggestion and is not intended to be applied to any currently discussed sword.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Nioiguchi: 匂口 The part of the nioi line next to the ji.

Habuchi: 刃縁 or 刃端 Borderline between the ji and the yakiba.

 

 

Would you explain where is the difference?

[Jean]

Would you explain where is the difference?

 

Carlo explained it very clearly, definition given by AFU is the following

 

Nioiguchi : The part of the nioi line next to the ji, (not the entire line)

Habuchi : The

borderline

between the ji and the yakiba (Whole line, including nioi/nie whatever the deki)

 

This means that there is always a nioi line under nie.

 

I agree that everybody use both terms indistinctively, (perhaps a corruption of language) but nioiguchi refers primarily to nioi, and not to the deki

Habuchi can be nioi deki or nie deki (from my understanding)

 

Ted or Guido or Koichi san can explain it in technical terms

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi,

 

Nioiguchi: 匂口 The part of the nioi line next to the ji.

Habuchi: 刃縁 or 刃端 Borderline between the ji and the yakiba.

 

 

Would you explain where is the difference?

 

If we simply go by these "definitions" alone, the nioguchi would seem to be the portion (the half) of the nioi line in direct contact with the ji, where the habuchi is made up by the entire nioi line (both halfs) in contact with both the ji on one side and the yakiba on the other. If this is indeed the case there must instances where it is necessary to describe something going on right at the border between the ji and habuchi, or nioiguchi.

 

Polishers, what say you as a significant amount of time must be spent defining these borders?

[Guido]

Before this gets out of hand again:

 

Yakiba is the hardened portion of the edge.

Hamon is the pattern of the Yakiba towards the Ji.

Habuchi and Nioiguchi are for all practical purposes the same - the transition zone from the Yakiba/Hamon to the Ji. (All hardened parts consists basically of Nioi [and can, but don't have to have, Nie] - it's more or less a matter of semantics.)

 

Since Yakiba is kind of a technical term, we usually call it by its pattern, Hamon. It is commonly understood that we *mean* the Yakiba when we talk about Hamon. Looking at the Kanji used for the terms above should clarify any doubts about their meaning.

 

Photos of blades in Hadori are quite tricky to do properly, and more often then not the "true" Hamon is hard to see, if at all. What makes it easier to appreciate when blade in hand, is a royal pain in the neck to take pictures of.

[reinhard]

i would add the hamon can be seen since koma-nagura.

 

This is interesting. Chu-nagura is definitely out of question. Can you provide us with any visual evidence related to the pic(s) in question?

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

You can follow this link among others.

 

a picture

 

[reinhard]

I'm afraid, some of you lost grip during this thread. It might be interesting to know what "koma-nagura" etc. is all about and put it into relation to the sword in question. There are different stages of polishing: Foundation polishing, using stones named "ara-to", "binsui", "kaisei". Further polishing is done using "nagura"-stones, differing in fineness, and later "uchigumori"-stones: one for the ha, one for the ji. After that small and thin wafers of uchigumori-stones are used: They are called: ha-zuya and ji-zuya. Then a powder named "nugui" is applied to bring out contrasts. If wanted (and most collectors do), hamon's outline is masked by a kind of make-up, called "hadori". You can see these 11 stages in the attachement (from top to bottom and from right to left).

The misunderstandings in this thread are due to a general misconception of "hamon" and second to an information in the book "The Craft of the Japanese Sword", which can be easily misleading. It is said there: "But at this stage (koma-nagura) the hamon has become clearly visible." It is visible to the polisher, but not to the viewer of the pics! Actually true hamon is visible in some of the pics BEFORE hadori was applied.

Now, looking at worn blades, backward engineering doesn't work anyway. Older stages of polish don't come back again after long and/or exaggerated sword-care. All you can see in pics (like the one in question) is the ha (hardened edge) and its outline. As Carlo pointed out: This is true for oil-quenched blades too and they don't have a hamon, just a hardened cutting edge. Illusion of hamon, however, can be created by "hadori" at all times. - This is no judgement of the blade in question here.

 

Again: Pics are no reliable source of information, especially when it comes to NihonTo.

 

 

reinhard

[Robert C. Walker]

After all this fascinating discussion and information on hamon, etc, it will be interesting to see what people say once I post some post-polish photos. Hopefully, I can get some useful ones.

 

It will take me considerable time to digest all the information that has been offered but thank you all very much for the investment of your time and knowledge.

[Mark Green]

Hi Robert,

I love your sword.

I think it was likely once a nice long Nagamaki polearm. Sometime in the 1600's, maybe 1700's it was professionaly reshaped to become the nasty Wakizashi it is today. Because peace had broken out, and pole weapons were very hard to carry into town.

I think a great job was done on this, but the shape is very unusual for any standard Wak, although not unheard of.

It looks to be a wavy Suguha, with a nice bright (sort of) Habuchi/nioiguchi.

The boshi is what leads me to think 'reshaped polearm', as well as the suspected hamon running into the Nakago, it just looks right to have been one.

There were some Wakizashi made just this way I'm sure. But, I have seen a few nicely reshaped Nagamaki and if I had to say, That is what I would say.

Does your polisher think it was uncut, or what?

 

SWEET!!!!!

JMHO (no games)

Mark G

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Robert, of course the fact that the hamon might be not visible on an out-of-polish blade's

pictures doesn't mean it isn't there and that the yakiba might be a faked one doesn't mean it always is. Guess the matter is just about the possibility of a correct judgement, not the quality of your blade. Chances are that your blade turns out nice. Best luck and let us know.

[Robert C. Walker]

I think it was likely once a nice long Nagamaki polearm. Sometime in the 1600's, maybe 1700's it was professionaly reshaped to become the nasty Wakizashi it is today. Because peace had broken out, and pole weapons were very hard to carry into town.

I think a great job was done on this, but the shape is very unusual for any standard Wak, although not unheard of.

It looks to be a wavy Suguha, with a nice bright (sort of) Habuchi/nioiguchi.

The boshi is what leads me to think 'reshaped polearm', as well as the suspected hamon running into the Nakago, it just looks right to have been one.

There were some Wakizashi made just this way I'm sure. But, I have seen a few nicely reshaped Nagamaki and if I had to say, That is what I would say.

Does your polisher think it was uncut, or what?

 

Mark, I asked the polisher about it being shortened when I first showed it to him, as several people had suggested it from the pictures. He rejected the idea completely with the blade in hand.

[Mark Green]

Thats way cool!!!

It is always so cool to find a sword like this, that was made to be 'different'

Makes you wonder if it was a special order or what?

It seems that you see very few Wakizashi like this.

Just makes it all the better!

Enjoy, Mark G

[Robert C. Walker]

hi, hope you realize that you have an excellent polisher in Takeo Seki, located right in BC Canada.

 

Franco, I have not heard of that polisher but I am new to nihonto. I took the blade to Tatsuhiko Konno, outside of Seattle.