Still Trying To Narrow Down-Muromachi-Too Long? Hada?

[jensen6865]

Hi all,

Still trying to narrow down this blade. Been reading all I can and looking at lots of good blades. I am beginning to understand why it takes years to be an expert! This came back with my dad from Occupation with Bushmasters. I have posted a number of ideas and pictures of it before. Hopefully I know a little more now. 

Any help and guidance would be very much appreciated.

 

Overall blade length- 38cm.

Nagasa-68cm.

Nakago-20.3cm.

Sori-16mm.

Motohaba-32mm.

Ji-20mm, shinoji-12mm

Sakihaba-25mm.

Munimachi-1.5mm.

Hamachi-1mm.

Kissiki-40mm (Chu?)

O-suriage probably about 8.1cm( from rust line and polishing thinning).

Nakago sori-1.5mm.

Motokasane-8mm.

Sakikasane-6mm.

Hamon:at hamachi-8mm, at yakote-9mm. Suguha, w/small choji/gnome? sometimes, looks like ashi. Nie along the hamon. Cloudy white to ha.

Ji- Itame/mokume, strongly standing? really shows up like grain. Chekei or maybe just jinie some places. Lots of Jinie.

Boshi: sugu hamon continues around kissiki same width. Even curve with edge. Ko-maru. Short kaeri. Fits kissiki perfectly. Picture of Boshi doesn't show that it goes further up and tight Komaru-flash hides it.  

 

Thanks for helping, Dan

[Jean]

Seems there is a slight mistake :-) :

 

 

Overall blade length- 38cm.

Nagasa-68cm.

Nakago-20.3cm.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Dan just mistyped a 3 for an 8, I'm sure, Jean.

 

First impression on the blade is Nambokucho, Dan.

 

Ken

 

[jensen6865]

Hey Guys,

Nice typing!!  Yes the oa on blade is 88 cm. Sorry about that! It would be a strange new folded blade to get all that right. Don't make me laugh so early in the morning- at least here! 

Ken, thanks for the look and experience. A few have thought/suggested even late Muromachi, but I can't find any that size/hada/hamon and with old polishes, which no one seems to disagree about, it just doesn't seem to fit, but I am realizing more and more how much is involved here. 

 

Thanks guys, any other help would be really appreciated, Dan

[jensen6865]

HI guys,

When you have a chance could some of you check this blade out and give me some of your thoughts. I only have two books now and they have helped me a little bit, but even when the period is no so easy to tell with some smiths/schools when Toriizori and Zoshizori are involved.... first impressions gave me a possible Nambokucho era, but then some thought because of sori, more like even late Muromachi, but it seems awfully long for it and so many other things... 

Any help would be great!

Even just hints would be a help!---have: chikei, Itame, ko-maru, o-suraige, bo-hi, mumei, nakago sori, polishes, seriously Nie

I am pretty sure lots of Ji-nie.

 

Thanks to all, Love this site! Dan 

 

PS- It is all your guys' fault I want more blades!!!

[Jean]

Dan,

 

I have, to simplify the task, uploaded a Kantei worksheet in the topic : "new addition sword fun kantei".

 

Try to fill it in and post it. It will help you and give us indication. It is the best way for you to learn your sword.

[jensen6865]

Dear Jean,

Thanks so much, I will certainly do it!

 

Dan

[jensen6865]

  Hi everyone,

Here is Jean's posted form filled out best I can know and see. No laughing please! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks, Dan

bladeinfoform.pdf

[Jean]

Dan,

 

You are going either to laugh or cry but the file is empty, nothing appears as marked by an "X". I am using my ipad, btw.

[Kronos]

Dan,

 

You are going either to laugh or cry but the file is empty, nothing appears as marked by an "X". I am using my ipad, btw.

 

Works fine for me.

[jensen6865]

Hi Jean,

I love this interchange of ideas, but hate my ignorance of so much of the computer/file and kantei. I will try to figure out how to make it work for everyone's system. Sorry to anyone else who had a problem!

Thank you for the form. I actually thought, "I am not stupid, I read fast, I will have this blade figured out in a few days". How unbelievably ignorant!!

Then I got a few hints and didn't even know what it meant, still don't about some.... for instance, "hamachi- lots of info there". I am afraid I still don't know all that is meant.

Thanks to all, Dan 

[Jamie]

where does the Bo hi end?

 

Edited- I see it now.

[Jean]

Hi Dan,

 

Must be the ipad, I know that the new forum has some problems with apple ipad (e.g.: no emoticons). :-)

[paulb]

Dan

I am not going to be help you too much as I cant see enough of the detail you describe in the images (partly my eye sight , partly images and partly polish) In the kantei sheet you mention Rai hada. Rai hada are dark patches of grainless steel within the jigane. They are similar to Sumi-tetsu in Ko-Aoe blades and Enju hada in Enju. My feeling is they are all much the same thing which are patches of very hard steel within the laminate. There is a school of thought that it is core steel (shingane) showing through but this is generally courser and more open in texture. I cant see evidence of Rai hada in your sword.

I do not think your sword is a Rai blade, I cant really pin down why, it just doesnt look right for one. The tightness of the nioi guchi which if it also includes a lot of nie as you suggest might indicate enju or mihara work. I know you mention it doesnt have a high shinogi and discount mihara but these features are relatively subtle and t the comparative height of the shinogi not always apparent. On the sheet you describe it as koshi zori, can you check this as it could be important. When a sword is shortened you loose a lot of the original shape a koshi-zori blade will become straighter and torizori. If there is still koshizori present in  your sword? it suggests either it has not been greatly shortened or it had a hell of a koshizori kick originally. Try and imagine what the original shape would have been this will help you a lot with both period and school.

The problem is is that as you move in to the muromachi period much of the work of Bizen, Mino, Yamato all start to share common features as they try to emulate the popular Soshu work. Therefore telling the difference between soden Bizen, Sue Seki or Sue-Mihara, Enju etc especially when a blade is out of polish, tests even the most experienced of apprasiers (which I dont think any of us claim to be )

It is an interesting work with some potential. I would get it in front of a qualified polisher and get their opinion regarding whether it will take a polish (cant see anything to suggest it wont) but until all detail is clearly visible you are going to struggle to get much beyond where you are.

[jensen6865]

Paulb,

 

Thanks for the input and thoughts. I took very careful measurements with a depth gauge and straightedge and it has slightly more sori directly above machi than the rest of the blade. I will try and look at some of the smiths/schools you mentioned and see if I can gain some insight. 

The shinoji is low, as in almost exactly parallel. Polishing?

"Tight nioi guchi" how is that defined? The bright white line of the hamon is obvious Nie, In some lighting and angles it almost appears that the hada has Nie woven throughout, but I don't know if that is just what grain/hada looks like when it really "stands up"? 

I will try and get more info up. 

 

thank you very much, Dan

[Jamie]

nie can be seen in the hada of some swords and is referred to as Ji nie.

I can't tell if yours does from the pics, but maybe it's what you're seeing. I am not sure.

[paulb]

Hi Dan

I can only tell you what I mean by tight nioiguchi but it is not a formal definition. When you look at the hamon on some blades the line of nioi that creates the hamon is relatively broad with "soft" borders (In NBTHK Kantei desriptions you oftern find the term "worn down" to describe the look), look at blades by Osaka smiths such as Sukenao, or Sukehiro to see this, On others the hamon is more narrow and much more clearly defined as can be seen in your sword. This is what I mean by "tight" (others may call it something else). I have seen this clearly defined hamon on Enju and Mihara blades and I am sure on many others. I thionk it is more prevalent on swords between the end of the Kamakura period and the begining of the Edo period, so later koto works. but I am sure there will be examples from other periods as well.

[Jean]

To simplify, there is always a nioi line (white line) at the frontier between the hardened edge and hada. This line is broad or tight. Depending if covered or not with nie, the blade is nioi deki or nie deki.

 

Nioi deki: Kamakura Bizen blade, nie deki: Kamakura Rai blade

 

Sometimes the hada is cobwebed with nie, it gives the blade somekind of wetness appearance.

[paulb]

thank you Jean that is a much more concise description than my rambling

[jensen6865]

Hi all,

 

Thank you both! I read some of these things in descriptions of blades for sale and even after looking at some glossaries was still at a loss for a way to actually decide. 

If it is "cobwebbed" with Nie would it be evenly distributed or would it tend to follow the lines of the hada/grain of the steel? I can't really tell, with my inexperience, but it looks sometimes and some lighting angles as if the edges of the grain is all nie, or would it just be "standing out"?

 

So the actual Nioi line of the hamon against the rest of the hada is always nioi, with or without Nie.

 

In you debt, Dan 

[jensen6865]

Hi,

 

This may help some?

 

Dan

[paulb]

Dan

Attached an image of a section of a Shikkake blade which shows nie in both hamon and jigane. If you want some additional examples from other schools let me have your email via pm and I will see what I can find.

 

[jensen6865]

Hi,

 

So Nie that makes up Chikei is dark in a line, and Nie can be in the Hamon as well. Is Nie always the same color? Dark/light/white?

 

Man, do pictures take the place of lots of words, but only if you have the words to know what to see!!!

 

Thanks, Dan