Seeking information on inherited WWII bringback daito . . .

[HankB]

As I mentioned in my earlier posting on my WWII bringback tanto, I also have some other swords I inherited from my father.

 

There's no particular story with this one, which I've tentatively identified as an ordinary shin-gunto. My father brought back several, and gave away most of them, keeping the "best" for himself. (I sometimes wonder if there were signed blades given away because of some rust or wear, and if today they're being used to dig weeds or something. )

 

In any case, here are some pictures of the blade - no mei or other markings are visible on the nakago, so I'm guessing it's a mass produced blade. There's wear - after, all it DID go through a WAR - but still, it's in better shape than most I've seen at antique shops and gun shows, so I imagine it has SOME value in today's market . . . but certainly not anything near what it means to me.

 

Please take at look at it and tell me what you think.

 

Thank you

 

- HankB

[HankB]

Here are some close-ups of the tsuba and tsuka . . . would appreciate any information you can share.

 

Thank you for looking.

 

- HankB

[mike yeon]

Hank,

 

From your pictures, it does not look like a mass produced gunto. The nakago makes me believe it's older. Also, it looks like it was modified to perhaps fit into gunto mounts. And lastly, because it has a non-military tsuba, I'd say it was an older blade sent to war.

 

Close up picts of the blade itself may provide better answers. As suggested by members per your tanto picts, I'd arrange for them to be sent for papers.

 

good luck.

 

mike

[Ed Harbulak]

Hi Hank,

 

Although this sword was obviously used during WWII, it appears to be a much older blade. The tsuba, menuki, fuchi, kashira are all non-military and although there's a leather combat cover on the saya, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an old style "civilian" scabbard under the leather. Often times the only modification to an old ancestral sword to make it suitable for use during the war was to put a leather covering over the old existing scabbard. At first glance the blade appears to pre-date the war and was probably shortened somewhat. Could be a very nice older sword.

Ed

[zuiho]

Hi,

 

judging from my experience looking at such things and from your

photos, I would guess that this is a sengoku period koto blade

pressed into the service of a Japanese officer. the shape is too

narrow for a showa blade or even shinto. the square butt of the

nakago can be characteristic of koto blades if it is ubu. If it is

0-suriage it has lost its original mekugi-ana and must have been

originally a very long sword, indeed, as it still has a

nagasa of at least 26.5".

in addition, the step from the nakago to the blade where the habaki

would lie is quite small and is characteristic of blades that have

had many polishes. It reminds me of a koto bizen wakizashi I once

had. The suguha hamon seen on this blade is also common in the

koto period

copies of koto blades were, of course, made in the shinshinto era

and even can be found as showa blades. If that were the case here

I would expect a different shape nakago , prominent yasuri-mei,

little rust , and likely, a signature.

By the way , I am fairly new to this forum and have not

posted much but this sword seemed to be right up my alley.

Wouldn't mind owning it. I Like the in-and-out shakudo cloud dragon

on the tsuba, too.

[zuiho]

Hi,

 

I forgot to add my name to the end of my reply on the last post.

Sorry about that, Chief.

By the way, you might want to compare the full-length photo of

your blade to the one shone under the banner for the Nihonto Message

Board.

 

Sincerely,

 

William G.

[Darcy]

Hank, you are 2 for 2 in your father's choices so far.

 

This is a good old blade, it is not mass produced. I don't entirely understand the tsuka, with the ring at the end. Maybe one of the fittings or gunto collectors can expand on that.

 

From looking at the nakago, my feeling was that it was modified "recently" to fit that tsuka. There is a great difference in the patina, and the nakago "feels" longish, and the conclusion is that machi-okuri was done. Some swords when made o-suriage (shortened) had the mekugiana placed fairly high, even unusually high for katana use. I have one, when trying to mount it it looks like the mekugiana would fit very close to the fuchi.

 

This may have been in similar state, so the machi was moved up to a more standard relationship with the mekugiana, and this left the mekugiana feeling oddly low in relation with the nakagojiri. So it kind of looks like a tachi position. It would have had an otherwise slightly shortish nakago from shortening previously.

 

I think also that the nakago was bent because the curvature of the sword is interrupted just below the machi in the nakago. Please take a photograph of the cutting edge side of the nakago, I'm curious if it is a bit flattened right at the top of the nakago. This could be from anvil or hammer, but there is an indentation there and as mentioned the curvature looks interrupted to me. It would have been done to help fit the standard shape of the WWII sword of the time.

 

I would like to see more of the sword, from what I see it could be sengoku as mentioned, but could also be earlier... early muromachi, or early nanbokucho or even late kamakura. The curve seems deep to me and centered closer to the nakago, and I am factoring in what I think is a bent nakago, so I feel that I'd rule out middle to late nanbokucho and middle to late muromachi. It would come out more torii zori if the full shape were there.

 

If it is earlier work there is a chance that it could be Rai or Enju or a good Yamato school from the suguba hamon. I would like to see a closeup of the boshi in the kissaki and get an idea of what the steel is like or if the jihada can be seen.

 

From this level of pictures it's still just throwing darts at a dartboard, but it's absolutely not a mass produced blade as you had thought and something like this should be very carefully examined.

[Darcy]

PS. your Dad seems to have been some kind of a Nihonto savant. You better break out pictures of anything else he held onto.

[Brian]

Nice looking sword.

Just a theory about the ring on the kashira. I think it is as simple as not having a place to hang a sword tassel from, and so someone either screwed or brazed the ring onto the back of the kashira to have a place to add the tassel.

 

Unless it came with a tassel attached, this is of course just a theory.

 

Brian

[Jean]

As stated by NMB members, it looks like an old blades. As usual, once again, as cantankorous frog, I am complaining about the lack of :

 

- Inventory sheet

- Close pictures of :

 

- the Kissaki

- The monouchi

- the Nakago including Ha/Mune machi

- upper view of the mune machi

 

It will help NMB specialists (I am not including myself) to give more valueable opinions.

 

 

Now, I had with Darcy a few days ago (off board) a very interesting discussion about yasurime and nakago jiri. I shall add it was a one way discussion, Darcy, as usual, providing all the answers to my question.

 

From Tanobe sensei, Nakago kiri jiri appears on O suriage blades during shinto period. This blade could be a koto O suriage blade which could be confirmed if yasurime are kiri.

[kusunokimasahige]

one thing, remove the leather saya cover... highly likely you will find an original WOODEN saya and not a gunto one...

 

the leather cover and the mouting (ring on the cover) as well as the original fuchi/kashira which are not military issue, give it away.

 

this is not a gunto, only the leather saya covering is gunto style Imho

 

NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

KM

[HankB]

This is really becoming an education for me . . . I'm starting to get some faint glimmerings of what I don't know - so it would appear I came to the right place!

 

I guess I need to take more (and better) pictures to show more details on the blade . . . it would appear to be rather better than I thought it was.

 

- Hank B.

[Darcy]

Just to be fair those yasurime answers are not provided by me, when I am out of my depth I ask someone else, and those are what I came back to Jean with.

[HankB]

Per Jean's request, I've taken some measurements off the blade and taken a few more pix. (BTW, it's a good thing there's a "Japanese Sword Glossary" available on line! )

 

Nagasa: 69.3 cm

Kissaki: 3.2 cm

Sori: 1.7 cm

Sakihaba: 2 cm

Motohaba: 3 cm

Nakago: 21.3 cm

Yasurimi: Faint, but all look to be kiri

Nakago sori: 2mm

 

The hamon doesn't show up on the pictures very well (my electronic camera is a cheapie Canon) but comes in about 5-7 mm from the edge; configuration to my inexperienced eye is mostly sugu over the balance of the blade, but it looks like it becomes a little toran around the monouchi.

 

When you view the kissaki picture you'll notice some chips and notches - well, the blade was through at least ONE war that we know of . . . no doubt it was used for its intended purpose.

 

I've higher-res pix if necessary . . .

 

I'm seeking a "best guess" as to this blade's pedigree from someone who knows more than I do about nihonto . . . thank you for looking.

 

Hank B.

[kusunokimasahige]

Both flaws are not fatal! and adhere to the swords history though a polisher might ask you if you want them removed...

 

nice blade!

 

did you check under the Leather cover of the Saya yet?

 

best wishes,

 

KM

[Jean]

Hi Hank,

 

Lovely blade, it shoul polish out nicely.

 

To my taste (and always IMHO), if you intend the sword to be polished, have the kissaki repaired and the nick at the yokote removed (after togishi advice of course). They sure are part of the blade history - But what is history? a boy or a veteran trying to pierce something ....

 

Now, I cannot get farther than Darcy's observation, from your working sheet it seems the blade as stated by Darcy could be late Kamakura/Early Nambokucho. Probably nie deki with hakikake boshi.

 

Here is to compare a picture of my Enju blade (End Kamakura/Beginning Nambokucho) with a very brief inventory sheet (the complete one is at home )

 

Katana: NBTHK Hozon-token.

Mumei, O-suriage, attributed to Enju.

Nagasa: 66.2cm. Sori:1.9cm. lMotohaba 2.94cm.

hamachi: 0.71cm

Era: End Kamakura / beginning Nambokucho

 

I do not see a high shinogi from the pictures, it could indicate that the blade is more under Yamashiro influence but that is a wild guess because I have a ko-Nio Nambokucho katana which has no high shinogi - (There are always exceptions in Nihonto) - Could indicate possibly Kyushu Island

 

 

 

Are there some ashis? How is the jihada if visble ? (masame or not?) ...

[HankB]

kusunokimasahige - thank you, but I haven't removed the leather cover yet . . . .there seems to be something under there, but the cover is very tight, and will probably have to be cut off in order to avoid damaging whatever's underneath. I'm not prepared to do that . . . yet.

 

Jean - reading your posts is educational . . . though I always have to go back to the Japanese sword glossary for a translation! :lol:

 

So what I thought was a shin gunto may date back as far as the 14th century . . . wow . . . quite a difference there.

 

Looks like I'll be looking for a good polisher (I understand there are some hacks out there) and probably looking for a show with shinsa.

 

Funny thing . . . I grew up in Chicago, and then moved to Minnesota (near Minneapolis-St.Paul) for a number of years, and both places have shows with shinsas from time to time . . . now that I'm in Texas . . . nada. Just my luck . . .

[Jean]

Hank,

 

Thanks for your comments but all thanks should have been directed to Darcy because he is the one who gave me the methodology for Nihonto.

 

Everything in Nihonto is simple. You have to learn as much as you can from books. It gives you a good data base (in your brain acting as computer), then when you see a blade (picture or in hand) try to get everything out of it and then try to match all the facts observed with your data base, it shoul lead you to an answer

 

In fact, Kantei is not important by the answer given right/wrong (atari or not), what is important is the path which has lead you to the answer.

 

See Darcy's last post "??????" , I gave first an answer post Kanbun, then I have explained what leads me to this conclusion (perhaps false), it enables Darcy to give back his opinion pointing out the weak points of my kantei.

 

That is the only way to learn, never be afraid being ridiculous, always explained why and how you reach the kantei that is the only way to get corrected and see where you have gone wrong.

 

That is why the inventory sheet is very helpfull. You cannot get from picture the actual feeling of the blade (slender or not - O/Chu/KO kissaki ...) And it helps you know your sword inch by inch.