Need help translating first mei - Takai sada Tsugu?

[Marc]

Greetings gentlemen (woman ?),

 

I'm struggling translating my first mei, so I'm here asking your help. The blade come from a type 98 gunto, who seems traditionally made (visible hada). I read Takai sada tsugu, but I don't find any reference of him in Sough or on Richard Stein website.

 

Can someone confirm my translation and give me information about this smith? On a side note, can someone tell me where to find a lock for a type 98 gunto?

 

Many thanks.

[SwordGuyJoe]

It might be Sanetsugu, but may be Sadatsugu.

 

I'd love to see the blade. The name isn't immediately popping to mind (I'll take a look at the info I have), but that "tsugu" kanji is somewhat rare and the same as Shigetsugu.

[John A Stuart]

高田貞継 Takada Sadatsugu. John

[cabowen]

Takai Sadatsugu. Maybe a Kasama Shigetsugu student.

 

高井貞継

[Marc]

Thanks to you all. I'm always amazed by the speed of the answers.

 

I'm happy to see I was right on. Tomorrow I'll try to upload some (really poor) pictures. I'll take others to sunlight in a few days.

[John A Stuart]

Yes, a lttle mistake I made. I transcribed the wrong character. John

[SwordGuyJoe]

Looking forward to seeing the "really poor" pics

[Marc]

Here are the pics shot last night. Has stated, I'll try to take others in sun light in a few days.

 

To my uneducated eye, this is what I see with the blade in my hand:

 

98 type koshiraeè

Traditionally made blade, signed Takai sadatsugu in katana mei, without any date. Kiri yasurime;

About 25 1/2 inch long, with fumbary;

Hada looks like a mix of masane (near the ha) with itame;

I dont really know how to call the hamon. Maybe ko gonume or sugaba based on choji or gonume? In nioi deki.

There is some hagire. 1 open layer I think visible in the kissaki and 1 chip of about 2mm x 0,5 mm in the monouchi. 2 or 3 rust spots smaller than 2-3 mm.

 

Fell free to give me your impression on my first gunto.

[Marc]

And some more.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I don't see any hagire, but it does have some ware (are you sure you mean hagire?).

 

It would be nice to see this blade in polish, but given the pics, I'd guess (emphasis on GUESS) that this is a student of Shigetsugu. You can see some similar activities to Kasama den and the boshi looks very similar to others I've seen (and own).

 

I'd love to hear Chris' opinion.

 

Nope - I was wrong. From Markus' book, Takai Sadajio was born in 1902 and died in 1968. He worked in Gifu and all that is said is that he was a gunto smith, though your sword is gendaito. Perhaps he trained with Shigetsugu and moved but who knows?

[Marc]

Thank you for the additional information Joe. I found and entry for Takai sadatsugu as a rikugun jumei tosho here: http://japaneseswordindex.com/gendai2.htm .

I don't know how to verify if it's the same smith.

 

And of course, I was thinking ware and not Hagire. After 1 year of semi-serious study, I just start to grasp the sense of the different terminology. I slowly gain some knowledge on the subject. Reading a little more on the kasama den, I understand a little more the allusion made about the use of the tsugu kangi.

[SwordGuyJoe]

That would be your guy. I also found that he was chuge rated and earned a fifth seat - so all in all, not a bad smith. http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/tosho.htm

 

He's listed with the wrong "tsugu", but I would think that's an error.

[cabowen]

there were several seki/gifu smiths who spent time in Tokyo training under Kasama, or others, at both the Denshujo and later, the Nihon-to Gaku'in. This smith was very likely one of them. Check Uchiyama's NBTHK article...

[Marc]

Thanks for the link Joe,

 

Chris, can you tell me where can I find the Uchiyama article?

[cabowen]

Back issues of NBTHK Token Bijutsu. I don't recall the issues- it was quite a while ago....George might have the article handy, maybe ask him to take a look...

[george trotter]

Hi all,

I looked up Kasama in Uchiyama but he does not appear to have Takai Sadatsugu as a student.

 

However, in Uchiyama Chap IV on page 8 he is listed as a kaji in Seki.

He is not on the official Seki group descent list from the well known teacher tosho, nor is he in the list of 200 or so Seki (gunto) kaji "go" name only list, but is given in a separate list where their full names are given (only about 20-30 names) as Takai Sadatsugu (using the "wroing" tsugu) but this is misleading as this is only part of his true name ...his name is repeated in full in Jinsoo Kim sensei's Seki Kaji list as "Sadatsugu" (smith name as on your sword) followed by his true family name Takai Teijiro (this "Tei" is SADA, and this "ji" is the "wrong" TSUGU used for 2nd, followed by "ro" SON as Tei-ji-ro = Tei second son)). He is given by Jinsoo Kim as being registered as a Seki Kaji on Sho 16, April 11.

So it looks like he was a Seki Kaji who did traditional work as yours seems to be.

 

I also looked up the Nihonto Meikan p.357 and it gives Sadatsugu (as your mei) followed by ...Takai Teijiro (as given by Jinsoo Kim) and his address is Seki. He is given as 42 years old in Sho 18 (so born 1900) but no family details or teacher or style details are given.

It says he was RJT. No further data.

 

Please note that that he only made gendaito, not showato/gunto. Although the Seki Kaji lists include all those smiths registered to work in Seki, it means along with the showato/gunto kaji, true gendai tosho are included on that list, such a Nakata Kanehide and Watanabe Kanenaga to name just two. So I think your guy is a true tosho like them and you have one of his swords.

To support what I say, the 1942 "Dai Nippon Token Shoko Meikan" page 304-5 lists him in the TOSHO list for Gifu (Seki).

 

Just based on this and what I can see, you have a gendaito made by him. He must have been of a high standard to become RJT. Since yours has no date and no star stamp I would say it was one of his swords made between his registration in April 1940 and his becoming a RJT in (probably) 1943.

 

Hope this helps,

[cabowen]

Given the fact that neither kanji in his mei are used by any of the senior smiths in Seki we can theorize that he spent time learning the craft elsewhere. "Sada" is common to those who trained in the Gassan school, and as has been mentioned, "tsugu" is commonly used by smiths that trained under Kasama. Given the rather crude way the blade is signed, and the fact that he is not recorded as a student under Kasama or Gassan, it is quite probable that he spent a rather short time, possibly in one or both schools, and was thus never recognized as a legitimate student. There are several smiths known to have moved around, training for a short period under various master smiths; Ota Chikahide comes to mind, as one well known example.

[Marc]

This is really more information that I had expected. both George and Chris, I'm amazed by the quality of your answers. I plan to post some pictures taken at daylight, but bad weather and kids running around prevents me to do so for now.

[hxv]

Marc,

 

Any chance for close up pics of your sword, showing the hada and activities in the hamon?

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Marc]

Hi Hoanh,

 

I'm a lazy fellow. I'll do my best to take some shots Friday at sunlight.

[hxv]

Thank you Marc. I have a keen interest in seeing close up shots of your blade. Much obliged!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Marc]

Here I am. Ok, my photo skills and the polish of this blade are not really high, so I hope it helps.

[Marc]

I saw your recent post Hoanh and I'm curious to know your conclusion.

[hxv]

Marc,

 

Thank you for the excellent close up pictures. Based on the workmanship on your sword and mine (viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20141), I would have to guess that the two swords are not made by the same smith. So, I would conjecture that my smith is unrecorded and is not the same as Takai Stadatsugu that made your sword. The hada and hamon are very different. There is no mokume to be seen anywhere on my sword. It's all itame/flowing masame. The hamon are clearly different. I searched for many hours on the web and found this swords-for-sale listing back in 1998. A sword was listed as signed by "Noshu Ju Sadatsugu Saku Kore," and the description is a dead ringer for the workmanship on my sword (see sword #5 below, and with a "Tan" stamp as my sword as well). Again, without seeing the mei, we don't really know what kanji was used for "tsugu." Furthermore, "Minamoto" was not present in this mei. I did send Larry an email to see if he recalls the sword at all, but it's a very, very long shot and I have not heard back from him. Anyhow, I hope you find the info, however scarce, interesting.

 

What do you think, Marc? Same smith or different smiths?

 

At the risk of hijacking your thread, I would also be interested to hear from the general membership regarding my conjecture that the two swords are not made by the same hands. Too far fetched or reasonable?

 

Regards,

Hoanh

 

>Larry E. Klahn

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>Email: LKlahn@AOL.com

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[Marc]

Well, I know little, but the hamon is drastically different. And mine is nioi with ko-nie in habuchi. Did some war time smith worked in different traditions? I'm also interested to ear from our literate members.

[SwordGuyJoe]

At the risk of hijacking your thread, I would also be interested to hear from the general membership regarding my conjecture that the two swords are not made by the same hands. Too far fetched or reasonable?

 

 

Hoanh,

I find this very hard to believe. If the conjecture of spending time in multiple schools is correct (which admittedly, it may not be), then it is fair to assume that the smith will have differing styles from blade to blade, as he is not an expert in any one style, school, tradition. An example would be Kanehide that I exchanged e-mails with Daniel about recently. Often times, you see a blade forged in bizen den, then he showed an example that is clearly mino. Same smith, mei is legit, but different style. Take the Kasama den as another example, which I believe this smith visited and studied. They were strongly influenced by traditional bizen as well as Soden Bizen (a blend of Soshu and Bizen traditions). You see both styles as well as smiths that try "their own thing". Then you take into account the kanji themselves. Takai is not a very common name - I looked at the GTM, NTT/NTS, and Jinsoo Kim's site and found no other Takai's. Now look at that "tsugu" kanji. A rare version compared to the more more frequently used "次". Not an exhaustive search, but enough to tell me that I'm probably right.

 

Is it possible? Sure, I suppose it is. That said, if you hear hooves stomping behind you, could it be a zebra? Sure. But it's far more likely to be a horse.

 

Both of your swords are made by the same smith, unless gimei, which in this case would be even less likely than an unrecorded smith, since there would be little purpose to fake this smith.

[hxv]

Dear Joe,

 

Thank you for your thoughts. It is interesting to hear reasoned arguments from both sides of the fences.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[SwordGuyJoe]

Sorry to expound...

 

Here is my example Kasama Shigetsugu: http://s854.photobucket.com/user/SwordG ... Shigetsugu

 

And one currently listed on Aoi http://s854.photobucket.com/user/SwordG ... Shigetsugu

 

You see a lot of variation in the hamon, but it's still the same smith. Also keep in mind that hamon alone is a poor indicator of school, smith, etc. (Though there are some exceptions - as with most nihonto). Nearly every tradition used suguha, choji, and midare. Hizen den focused mainly on suguha, as did yasukunito but there are exceptions. Seki/Mino you see sanbonsugi but you see suguha, some choji, etc. The moral of the story is that you can't tell much about a book by its first chapter, much less its cover.

 

And even more sorry for a terrible example! First the horse/zebra, now book and cover... Friday happy hour at work I suspect!

[hxv]

Joe,

 

No problem at all, and your point is well taken.

 

Regards,

Hoanh