Need opinion about sword

[Thomas R]

Greetings to all from a new member. I have always dreamed of owning a Japanese sword and recently manage to have the luck to buy one from a friend that did not want it any more. He received three swords from his father who brought them back from the war (WW2). The two that he kept I now know (from this site!) to be nco swords or guntos. I am looking for an opinion about the sword I have. He said it was an enlisted mans sword, (I know, no such thing) but I am not sure that it was a military blade.

From what I have learned from this and other websites, I know that this is not an Art Sword, nor is it one with great value. it does have small flaws in it but nothing critical. I do not think it is valued high enough to justify a professional polishing, but I have learned enough from this site know better than to try it myself either. Lets just say that my attempts to polish an old beat up bayonet proved that I should never attempt that on this sword.

I am curious about the saya as I have not seen any thing similar to this one. the sword is missing the tsuba. I have carefully cleaned it with mineral oil, but otherwise not done anything else to it.

One question I do have, should I only mount it on the wall and be proud of it or would it bee a sin to try one cutting (Carefully!) with it.

Thanks in advance for your help in this manner.

Link to high res pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/120475074@N07/

[runagmc]

Look around the mekugi-ana (damage). It might not take much to break it, so I would not even swing it, much less cut with it...

 

PS: I can't tell for sure how bad the damage (forging flaw?) is, but just use good judgement and don't take any chances. It's not worth hurting yourself (or someone else) badly... IMO

[Brian]

Thomas,

The good news is that it is genuine, and looks handmade traditionally. Either a civilian wartime katana or a bit earlier. I think the hamon would look good in polish. Bad news is that you need to have that damage checked out on the handle to see what is going on there. Only shows on one side?

But I think you have a nice sword to study and certainly better than a Shin Gunto or NCO sword.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Someone put me right please!.

 

It may be normal but I can't seem to find another example, its this: Where the shinogi travels down the nakago, the mekugi-ana pierces the shinogi on one side, but seems to miss on the other.

 

Tell me its my old eyes.

[Brian]

It's your eyes. And the fact that the shinogi has a bit of a wobble. And the angle of the photo. It's not really of great concern.

 

Brian

[Thomas R]

I have added extra photos of the nakago that give a little more detail. This does does not look like damge some as forging roughness that was not filed off? Thanks for your help and opinion!!!

One more question: what is the shape of the Menuki? Looks like a flower?

Thanks again!

[drbvac]

Are you sure the nakago isn't odd on that one side -almost looks like it was bent/broken towards the side that looks fine - put back and welded or something - it is a strange looking thing - if it looked like that on both sides I would say the entire nakago was added.

[bigjohnshea]

There does appear to be one spot in the nakago where the shinogi has flattened out a bit, but then it does pick up again at the appropriate spot further down the tang. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

I don't cut with my swords for philosophical reasons, but that aside, I wouldn't cut or practice with this one for a few reasons. You should get a tsuba for it before even thinking about it. You should have the tsuka rewrapped and make sure all the fittings are tight. You should have it polished atleast into a practical state of polish so that the dullness of the edge doesn't cause increased tension or torgue in the blade and risk further damage.

 

The fact that the tsuka slides all the way up to the habaki without leaving room for the tsuba makes me think that your tsuka was not made for this blade. Just a thought. If that is true, that is something else that should be rectified before you cut with it.

 

The question is how badly do you want to cut with it, because that is a fair amount of money to spend on something just to have a sword that you can trust cutting with. If you want a cutter, you would be better off buying a used Bugei from someone. There are plenty of them out there.

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

This is a tsugi-nakago (welded on nakago)........The blade looks fairly nice- makes me think of the Koyama Munetsugu group, but the nakago looks like WWII Seki. It is clearly welded on....look at the difference in the steel color/rust/file marks etc., on both sides. Textbook example.

[drbvac]

MARK IT DOWN - Chris and I agreed on something :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[runagmc]

Why would someone weld on a nakago with a huge forging flaw? I don't totally disagree, but it would be nice for me, at least, to have some other experienced opinions. Just seems weird to weld on such a crappy nakago on to a sword of that level (koyama ha)...

 

Could the rust and discoloration, have come from the lack of a tsuba?

 

Edit to say, after another look, I see the fuchi fits tight to habaki, so out with that theory...

[Thomas R]

I have posted more close up pictures of the area in question.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/120475074@N07/

I managed to pick this up for what would be considered a steal, cheaper that ordering a new cutting sword, but I will lean towards your opinions and just display it. As it is older that me (52) I would feel horrible if something happened to it.

 

There is space for a tsuba to fit. my pictures may not have shown that clearly.

[Dr Fox]

Haaa old eyes or not, I feel just a little smug, that I had seen something that was not quite right. Since posting, I did not think the line of the shinogi from the habaki area, followed as strong as it should have, into and through the nakago.

 

If this is a WW11 nakago, would it explain that the care of an equal shinogi line wold be a low priority? As opposed to a handmade nihonto?.

[Brian]

I had considered the welded on nakago of course, but looking at the other side of the nakago, and the pics in the album posted...I discounted that. I still don't think it is. Yes..the one pic makes that seem to be the case, but I think only one side of the nakago has been messed with.

I could be wrong, but I doubt someone took the time to add a nondescript nakago to a better sword. It is done for the opposite reason.

Try and take a pic of the damaged side from a few other angles. That angle makes it look like a chunk is missing.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Flight of fancy: Nakago cut off to fit into kitbag as a naughty acquisition, nakago lost, a cheap gunto sacrificed because this looks a decent blade. No intention of forgery.

 

And yes! there are fairies at the bottom of my garden

[drbvac]

I have no idea how it is done either but assume it is not a butt joint - if it is a join on an angle through the nakago so that the actual seam if visible is farther from the mekugi-ana on one side than the other ? // The lighter coloured steel at both ends of the nakago itself is odd as well -

 

Interesting find in any event and as someone else asked why bother with this level of blade - maybe someone was just seeing if they could do it I suppose, could be a lot of weird things around in 50 more years considering how people like to "experiment"

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... 29&start=0

 

Link from several years ago where they discussed this item with some pictures - could be just less than a great job that someone attempted for the hell of it

[Brian]

He uploaded new pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/120475074@N07/

It's not welded in my opinion. It suffered a knock and/or some damage and was refinished in that area. The filemarks on the other side are continual through that area too..they have not been added later.

Sometimes there is simply no way to explain damage or marks, since we were not there.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Usually tsugi-nakago are done at an angle when looked at from the top (mune), like this:

 

 

 

----------------/ /--------------

---------------/ /---------------

 

so that the two welds do not line up from one side to the other.

 

If you look at the top of the nakago, you can see in the bottom photo crude file marks across the polished part of the blade that match those of the nakago. These were added to the blade AFTER it was polished-keep in mind that this part of the nakago is normally never filed.

 

I have outlined the weld line on both sides. The steel, patina, and file marks are different on each side of the line-quite obvious in the top photo. This is, as I said, a textbook example.

 

 

There were teams sent to the front to repair swords on a regular basis. This looks like a rather crudely done repair job to simply make a sword serviceable.

 

It couldn't be any more clearer than in this photo. You can even see the line separating the different pieces inside the mekugi-ana...

 

[drbvac]

Exactly what I pictured - psychic or what?

 

NOW -- WHY BOTHER - and if you could do a half decent job on one side what happened on the other side. ?

[cabowen]

Again, this wasn't meant to deceive anyone- it was almost certainly done to make a serviceable weapon in time of need....

[Thomas R]

I want to thank every one for their help with this. I didn't realize that it would promote such a lively discussion. Looking at the pictures I can see the point that Mr Bowen makes about a weld. And I know that pictures do not compare to holding the actual sword itself. But what I see in the pictures I am having trouble seeing on the real thing. Maybe it is just my bad Eyes. I have tried to get better pictures, that is why it took so long to respond. waiting for good weather and lighting better than my desk lamp. Looking at these, do you still support the idea that it was welded?

Ultimately the answer wont matter to much as I am still proud to have this sword. It fits me in that it has some minor flaws, and maybe a little tired, but still 90% good. I hope that I can age as well as this sword has.

I have posted High res pictures here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/120475074@N07/

there are also some close up pictures of some of the flaws that are on the blade. Can make for a good study for others trying to learn.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice!!!

[cabowen]

Yes, it is clear, in my opinion, that this has been welded.

[Robert Housley]

I am now and will probably remain a noob, but I am wondering if the nakago was possibly bent and cracked at the mekugi-ana. I agree that it looks as though it has been welded, but maybe only on the one side? The other side seems to be, at least to me, without the seam. I am also wondering if the indentation further down the ridge was part of the initial damage. I agree with Chris that it seems to be a quick repair to make the sword serviceable. I just wonder if the lines are off because it was twisted, straightened, and quickly filed to try to bring it back to flat? Just my half a pennies worth... I am a decent welder, but I am an expert at breaking stuff:)

Robert H.

[cabowen]

There are lines on both sides as I indicated above in the photos I posted. The lines are not straight across- they are usually offset as I also indicated above.

[Robert Housley]

Chris,

Yep, I missed the one pic... I was looking closer to the mekugi-ana. Using your outline and looking at another pic of the right area, I see the weld. When you said offset, I was thinking from mune side to ha side, not bottom to top.

Robert H.