raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Not sure if this has been posted before, but if not, it is useful information. Be aware that the prices do not include the costs for sending blades for importation clearance to Japan. What I find interesting is the fact that the cost for a Hozon for a fitting is actually lower than either of the NTHK groups in price when using the yen to dollar rate as of now. I also have heard that over 1700 blades have been submitted to the blade Hozon shinsa last November. By being the sword museum of Japan, they have an excellent library and a host of great advisors and judges. http://www.nbthk-ab.org/articles/nbthk0 ... schart.pdf Well, back to being a Dad! See you all in Tampa. Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 not sure how you are adding things up, but here is what I see: Hozon (non-members) total for items that pass: 39,000 yen ~$390 Tokubetsu Hozon (non-members) total for items that pass when submitting together Hozon/TH: 44,000 yen ~$440 NTHK-NPO total cost is $275. That is for items that pass at Shintei-sho (Hozon NBTHK cost $390) OR Kantei-sho (TH NBTHK cost $440). That is quite a bit less, never mind the shipping/insurance both ways (~$200), the registration and export costs (~$70), the agent fees to import/export/submit to the NBTHK/pick up from the NBTHK (~$400+). Factoring in those costs and you are looking at roughly 3 times the cost. Then there is the peace of mind you get from not sending overseas. It sure looks like a very good deal to me.... Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 From what I see, as far as Hozon prices for kodogu as shown on the list is stated as 17,000 jyp, that is about $170 by todays rate. A Hozon is not the same as a Shinteisho. From what I remember , a Shinteisho (69 points and under) is given to an item that is of inferior quality or condition, and cannot achieve a Kanteisho 70 points and above(Chris please provide your groups criteria for your group as I only remember the original NTHK rules) Whereas a Hozon is a beginning step for a blade that can be judged for a higher level depending upon the quality, level of maker and /or condition. For example in most cases, a genuine Kinai signed tsuba that is of average quality will most likely achieve only a Hozon level paper, thus the 17,000 yen charge for members. However, a superior classed tsuba by Kinai may achieve a Tokubetsu Hozon level paper. I think it is not fair to compare the 2 types of papers as the criteria is too different. What is the NTHK and NTHK-NPO prices for a fitting these days for an item that passes for a shinteisho or kanteisho including the submission price? Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 Chris you wrote: Hozon (non-members) total for items that pass: 39,000 yen ~$390 How did you get this number? the chart shows the Hozon pass only at 27,000 yen for non members, and 25,000 yen for members. that is $270 and $250, not the $390 that you wrote. Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 I think for the members of this forum, there should be a list of all current shinsa fees for all recognized groups for everyone to see and use. Just facts, no fiction. Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 Heres a good question, for either NTHK group. Can a ChuJo Saku sword maker still go YushuSaku? Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Chris you wrote: Hozon (non-members) total for items that pass: 39,000 yen ~$390How did you get this number? the chart shows the Hozon pass only at 27,000 yen for non members, and 25,000 yen for members. that is $270 and $250, not the $390 that you wrote. I was adding the two columns together but that appears to be an error....So, the cost (nonmembers) for passing Hozon for blades and koshirae is $270 and $370 for TH, versus $275 for NTHK-NPO for both levels, Shintei-sho and Kantei-sho. For failing, the NBTHK cost is $120 versus $100 for the NTHK-NPO. For kodogu it is $190 H and $290 TH versus $275 for the NTHK-NPO. While there is still shipping/insurance/agent fees, clearly the costs for NBTHK Hozon papers for kodogu would only add up to perhaps double the stateside NTHK-NPO shinsa cost compared to the three times for blades and koshirae. Shintei-sho is for 60-69 points, Kantei-sho is 70-79 points, Yushu is 80 and over for the NTHK-NPO. I agree that it would be nice to have a sticky with each group's costs, paper types, etc. Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Heres a good question, for either NTHK group. Can a ChuJo Saku sword maker still go YushuSaku? If you look through the Yushu saku books published under Yoshikawa Kentaro sensei, I think you will find at least one gendai smith that has a Yushu rated blade and he is not even rated by Fujishiro. I think one of the guiding principles of the NTHK has always been to evaluate a blade on its merits regardless of Fujishiro or other ranking, or period. Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 This is why I believe you cannot compare the papers of these different groups, the criteria is different, no one is wrong, just different. Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 There is truth in that...but as a metric for gauging the validity of the mei, they both consider this and won't issue if they think the mei is not valid. They will also both attribute mumei blades in most cases, which is a help for many....The NBTHK, from what I have seen, tends to favor older blades while the NTHK historically, as I said, seems to put more weight on the quality of the blade itself regardless of period. Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 Not entirely true, Kiyomaro for one great example. Well regarded by the NBTHK. Quote
Brian Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Why is this a X vs Y thread? People won't make their choice based purely on costs. I thinks it's nice to have a list of all the costs for reference, but I won't entertain another Group A vs Group B thread. A huge number of people on this forum aren't even in the USA..so for them the local USA vs Japan thing is moot. By all means update us with the costs for each group. I'll try and put them into a spreadsheet for info. But no more X vs Y please. Brian Quote
Jean Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Agreed with Brian, each organisation has its own merit, I am not very adventurous and sending a blade to Japan with all the different costs to add to the shinsa fees is deadly for me, that's why I buy my blades certified and in full polish. Everybody has been able to observe that the cost of certified full polish blades is very very often inferior to the one of buying+polishing+certifying+habaki+shirasaya... Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 My intent certainly is not to fan any X vs Y flames, but to clarify the costs and other factors involved. It is certainly useful for all collectors to be aware of the costs and differences between the groups. There can be no debate that the NBTHK is the gold standard for kantei-sho when it comes to resale. Their hozon/TH, and Juyo origami are highly regarded and really a must if one wants to get the most out of an item when it is sales time. In my mind, the NTHK-NPO stateside provides a very attractive option for those seeking to vet their items and to learn more about them without the expense, time, hassle, and risk, associated with sending to Japan. It is well known that the NBTHK attributions are often not the most detailed, and there is no opportunity for any clarification. The stateside shinsa by the NTHK-NPO provides in most cases a more complete attribution; additionally I have made them accessible for clarification and feedback unavailable when submitting overseas. I believe all of these factors make for a valuable service. Based on the demand (thanks to all!) I have seen in each of the 4 stateside shinsa I have organized, this opinion seems to be shared by a great many people. For high dollar items, I have frequently advised people to submit items passing NTHK-NPO shinsa to NBTHK shinsa as this will make it easier to get full value at sales time. Having the item vetted means less risk; with high dollar items the costs of shinsa is a much smaller percentage of the item's value and makes more sense financially. Both groups offer a service that is valuable to collectors. Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 Yup, just wanted to post the info about the fees, it wasn't meant to do anything else but state facts to the membership and make them aware of the actual prices for NBTHK. i think a permanent thread for all users that show all the prices and information about the groups for shinsa would be a benefit for members. Quote
Brian Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Agreed. I know your schedule is hectic Mike, but can I take that as volunteering to compile the info together on (how many groups total?) and then I'll put it together like in that above file? I'm not familiar enough with the groups to compare etc. If someone can collate it, I'll compile and host it. Brian Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 I supplied the NBTHK info as I am a NBTHKAB board member. Ask Chris to supply his groups info, and kindly ask Tom Helm to supply the NTHK original groups info. That should suffice for now. Quote
raiden Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Posted February 7, 2014 Just list the basic info, no need for any additional input, keep it simple. Just state that this is just the fees for each groups shinsa that is listed, it does not include any additional expenses or costs. If there are any changes, have the appropriate people notify you. Quote
Jean Posted February 8, 2014 Report Posted February 8, 2014 I think that the criteria for each level certificate in each organization will be fine. Quote
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