Masakiyo ?

[peter]

Hello all.

i believe this to be signed "Masakiyo" could anyone on the board be kind enough to say whick one if not gamei of course and from which era is this tanto is from.

many thanks

Peter

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Maybe i'm wrong but i read Kaneyasu 包保

[peter]

jacques of course you are correct, i was thinking of another while send this,

a fairly big name so Gamei?

Peter

[Jean]

Peter,

 

If Gamay=wine variety and Gimei=fake signature thus Gamei= false wine variety :D

 

More seriously, "a fairly big name", where did you get this information?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Hidari Kaneyasu is rated josaku,

[Jean]

Jo saku is not what I call a fairly big name (I checked Markus' book before posting my reply to Peter :D ) in Shinto times. (Even if he is the mirror/left handed man)

 

There are at least 2 generations who signed nijimei.

[Jean]

Mei example of Hidari K.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/09569.html

http://www.nihonto.us/HIDARI%20KANEYASU%20KATANA.htm

https://touch.ebay.com/tablet/item?item ... 7221&rd=vi

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/ ... ID=5143869

 

Does not seem to match Hidari Kaneyasu's one

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jo saku is not what I call a fairly big name

 

 

That was Peter's thought and even if he seems not really educated in matter of Nihontô, he is not totally wrong.

 

ps Nidai Kaneyasu sometimes signed the usual way but i doubt he and his father made tanto.

[peter]

Thank you Jacques i do admire all those that are educated in the study of nihonto . i don't always have the time i would like tospend on the subject but will continue to try.

Peter

[paulb]

dont worry Peter I have been involved in this subject for 30 years and still dont regard my self as educated in it. I think it would be very stupid to assume I was. I am however happy to keep on learning.

There was a wonderful deifintion of an expert taht appeared on here a while ago "Often wrong but never in doubt" it somtimes seems very applicable :D

[Jean]

We are all beginners in Nihonto for the main reasons that we have no Japanese teachers and that we are living far away from Japan. I know a few experts in Nihonto or Kodogu. They have all spent years in Japan, have all had a Japanese teacher and often pay for him teaching (with astounding results).

 

Peter with 319 posts is hardly a greenhorn, that's why I ask him where did he found that Kaneyasu was a fairly big name.

 

Jacques, you wrote:

 

Quote:

Jo saku is not what I call a fairly big name (I wrote)

 

 

That was Peter's thought (you wrote)

 

 

No, If I wrote this, it is because (unless I am losing my English)

"a fairly big name"

is an understatement for "quite a big name".

 

I just wanted to tell Peter that:

 

1 - Do not deduce from a smith rating that he is a big name or not, the rating is made by comparison with smiths living at the same time; it means the classification depends on the number of smiths living at the same period and their related skills. That's why when you state a rating for a smith, this one has to be compared with the ones living at the same time/period. A Kamakura Jo saku smith has not the same skills as a Muromachi one and of course a Shinto/Shinshinto one.

 

2 - Do not deduce from a rating that the blade is gimei or not, only shinsa will validate a mei (unless it is blatant forgery). Even a chu saku smith can be gimeied, that is the reason why blades sold in Japan are at 95% submitted to Shinsa (too many fakes and as there are more and more swords in the market due to the crisis, people want to be sure).

 

Now, talking about your tanto, Peter, were I you, I'll send to Gordon Robson (NTHK) a picture of the nakago and he will give an answer about the mei. (Search the Forum).

 

Nidai Kaneyasu was not the son of Kaneyasu the first. He was from Tango province, went later to Osaka to study under Kaneyasu the 1st and was later adopted by the latter and made his successor. He worked around Enpo area (1673-1681)

 

You can exclude this one.

 

Kaneyasu 1st was a late Tegai smith who moved from Yamato to Osaka in Keicho era - no works dating from this period are available. First available works are dated to Kanei.

 

At the opposite of what is saying Jacques, late Tegais smiths were also specialised in Tanto and lot of them have survived, so I would not wave away a smith based on this being a tanto.

 

Furthermore, the suguta of this tanto can match sue Yamato/Tegai.

 

Now, the blade is not in good polish, you did not described it (Hada/hamon/measurements). Remember: the mei must confirm the work.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

Please stop splitting hair.

 

From Fujishiro Shinto Hen :

 

KANEYASU MIGI MUTSU [KANBUN 1661 SETTSU] SHINTÔ JÔSAKU

His original kuni is Tango, and he was a pupil of Sa Mutsu. Originally his name was KANESHIGE, and he

changed it to KANEYASU after he became his (Kaneyasu's) adopted son. The father and son both were engaged by

Lord Mizuno and moved to Matsumoto, a castle town, in Shinshû. As for his works, there are some of the Sa Mutsu

Den style, and suguba which can be simply considered as ordinary for the middle shintô period. As for his mei, there

are also some seen which are exactly like the samoji of his father.

 

 

At the opposite of what is saying Jacques, late Tegais smiths were also specialised in Tanto and lot of them have survived, so I would not wave away a smith based on this being a tanto.

 

Mutsu No kami Kaneyasu father and *adopted* son are Shinto smiths and are not known for having made tanto. I will be happy if you can show me an example.

[peter]

Jean, i took you first comments as poking fun, no harm done, thank you for your information . i do know i should read more and buy less. i do appreiciate all the help and advise ALL the members here have contributed in my direction over the past few years. i will get measurements ect on as soon as i can.

Peter

[Jean]

Jacques, Jacques, once again you read too fast and miss the point.

 

By giving the origin of the second generation I was precising, you did not notice it, that he had not his roots in Yamato Tegai. BTW, the Fujishiro Hen quote confirms my saying

 

You should have noticed that the suguta is not a mid Edo one.

 

To bring some information to Peter:

 

In Sue Tegai tanto, the boshi are straight with a komaru, or straight with a sharp tip, and many of them have a little hakikake, and sometimes there is a long kaeri o. Sue-tegai tanto nakago-saki are kurijiri, the nakago mune are round, and the yasurime are higaki, Also, many tanto are signed above the mekugi-ana, just under the togidamari (the border of the polished area), and often the first kanji has almost disappeared.

 

Now you can judge by yourself Peter. Nevertheless I would have the mei checked.

 

http://www.tetsugendo.com/swords/Tan-1_tegai.html

[Jacques]

Jean,

 

You missed an important point, there is no Kaneyasu (with that kanji 包保) in Sue Tegai ha (sue koto era).

[Jean]

No, I did not forget, reason why I suggested to have the mei verified by Gordon Robson, because if you check Markus book : e-index of Japanese swordsmiths, Kaneyasu is said to be a sue Yamato Tegai smith who moved to Osaka and of which the first recorded swords are dated from Kanei.

 

Or undoubtedly this tanto has a very big flavour of sue Muromachi Perhaps not Kaneyasu but perhaps a sue Tegai mumei blade gimeied.

 

Peter is the only one able to say if sue Tegai tanto criteria I have listed, applied or not to this blade.

 

Another example:

 

http://www.tetsugendo.com/swords/Tan_118_kanehisa.html

 

You will notice that the mei is under the mekugi ana in opposition to the general rule I posted before.

 

What would be interesting is the yasurime, Peter, when you want...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

There is no known tanto signed Kaneyasu. This one would be the first and looking at the mei, it has great chances to be gimei.

[Jean]

That's interesting Jacques, what are your sources? I checked the Nihonto Koza, Albert Yamanaka newsletters there is absolutelly no references of Kaneyasu no producing any tanto.

 

But, while consulting Serge Degorre (Kitsune) Shinto volume, he mentions the father of Mutsu no Kami Kaneyasu as being a sue Tegai smith under the same name....

 

It seems that there are two options for Mutsu no Kami Kaneyasu:

 

1- he was a late Tegai smith who moved from Tegai to Osaka in Keicho and whose swords can only be dated to Kanei

 

Or,

 

2 - he was the son of a sue Tegai smith named Kaneyasu

[Jacques]

Jean,

 

In your sources (and others i have) Is it said that Kaneyasu made tanto ? No. Have you ever seen one ? Man does not prove a nonexistence; however, if you say Kaneyasu has made tanto, you must prove it.

[peter]

Gentlemen,

I have a few more images and hope they are a little better as to add some clarity to the debate, if not its a new camera and lessons I fear,

Measurements, 25 cm

18.5cm nagasa

6mm at mune machi

[peter]

Sorry about the mei images not getting rotated,

Peter

[raaay]

hi peter

 

 

your last pic of the nakago is it my old eye's playing tricks on me or is there an old part of a kanji just above the mekugi ana ?

 

ray

[peter]

Ray,

I had another look and seems its down to the photograph, the yasurime seems katte sagari at first glance but with a few vertical lines running down the nakago to the mekugi ana, not at all uniform, more checkered, the returns to katte sagari almost kiri.

Peter

[Jean]

You see Peter, that is the kind of pictures which should have been provided from the start.

 

No one should post poor pictures and ask info about a sword.

 

These pictures tell the whole story, Peter.

What is your opinion from your pictures?

[peter]

ok Jean i will bite. i think the yasurime should be better executed . the blades seems shinto or shin shinto but the mei looks a little fresh .

Peter

[Jean]

Bingo Peter. I'll say shinshinto or even Meiji.

 

Why? Because a lot of shinshinto smiths have copied Koto blades and this one is a copy of a sue Muromachi tanto. (That is why the mei has been added)

 

You had the answer from the start :D

 

Yasurime are crude, the mei is fresh, you can easily see the chisel strokes, the blade has had few polishes. You can see file marks on the nakago mune. The mekugi ana is drllled.

 

All what I said, is just from observation and deduction. Anyone having 1/2 years of experience could have said this (from your last pictures of course, not the first ones ).

[peter]

Thank you Jean, Jacques and Ray . for the little push to look and try harder.

case closed? and more learned.

Peter