christianmalterre Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 Here´s an thematics/question intended for the rather experienced senior collectors in Tsuba... Did you observate significant differences in sabi-ji finnish especially in comparence to the mid edo Myochin influenced and Owari Yagyu groups? If yes-where would you point indicators so to group it? (of course PM me if not interest in grouping this thought public) Christian Quote
Soshin Posted October 27, 2012 Report Posted October 27, 2012 Hi Christian, I am not complete sure of your question. :? If I am understanding your question correctly I personally wouldn't classify a tsuba based only on one specific attribute. In this case even an important one such as sabi-ji. I would also go on to say that Mid Edo Myochin and Owari Yagyu groups had different sabi-ji. Attached is want I think is a Yagyu, Ko-Dai tsuba that I have in my collection likely made by someone working in the Futogoyama school located in Owari during the late Edo Period. The original owner was thinking it was a Yagyu tsuba work of the Nidai Noritsuke which it could be. Notice the blueish/black color intermixed with a deep brown of the sabi-ji as well as the overall sandy texture of the surface finish which are all characteristic of Yagyu tsuba workmanship. This along with the square rim shape, overall shape, small size but great thickness, and the fact that the design is in the Yagyu design books indicates this is a Yagyu tsuba. The quality of the iron and the interpretation of the design would indicate a later generation (Ko-Dai) designation in my opinion. I hope you find my write up helpful to your discussion. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
ROKUJURO Posted October 27, 2012 Report Posted October 27, 2012 David, a very nice TSUBA! On the photo I believe to see remains of a removed signature. Is that visible on 'in hand'-inspection? Quote
Soshin Posted October 28, 2012 Report Posted October 28, 2012 Hi Jean C., Thank you glad you like it. Not sure if it is much help to Christian M as it is a late Edo Period Yagyu, Ko-Dai tsuba. I noticed the same thing you are referring to on the omote along the left side of the seppa-dai in hand. Not sure if it was a signature or some type of inscription was removed. If something was removed it was a very long time ago because the patina at this location is the same as it is across the whole tsuba. This might have been done by the original tsubako right after it was made if the tsuba was sold to a high ranking official or samurai. An alternative idea is that the tsubako was unhappy with how he signed the tsuba so he removed it and left the tsuba a mumei. The idea of the tsubako doing this would explain the consistency of the patina in the area that once had the inscription as he would know how repatinate the surface that once had the inscription to match the other parts of the tsuba. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted October 28, 2012 Report Posted October 28, 2012 Hi David, What is the design? It looks like a stylised Saihai or Haraegushi to me. Cheers Quote
Alan Morton Posted October 28, 2012 Report Posted October 28, 2012 David , it might of had a gimei signature and this was removed and the whole lot repatinated . Haynes refers to it as re colouring in his auction catalouges Ford is the one to answer both Christian and David's question with some degree of certainty. Alan. Quote
christianmalterre Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Posted October 28, 2012 Dear David, thank you for your´s investigation-you did seemingly understand mine question here. It however is not the point in comparing it with the surface finish your´s very good Norisuke Tsuba here does show. Norisuke and equally latter Tsubashi from this time your´s tsuba here dates;did not use this kind of sabi-ji finish i am refering. Your´s Tsuba looks to have Sabiji-it but is not the "peach" sabiji i am refering to. you only can see this in Tsuba dating around 1650 to 1700(roughly timesheet)-in latter ones,they did try to achieve it again-their´s workmanship is but slightly different. No worry but-it´s both generally called Sabiji... I will try so to send you some close up pictures directly(so you can see)-did try so to post this here,have but to say that going such in detail this system here does not allow me so to post such needed higher resolution pictures... Actually i do not see how i could show this here... One question but-does your´s Norisuke piece show laminar folding/layers in the mimi ? @Alan, i am sorry,i but do not agree with this statement this very Tsuba from David here may got repatinated. At least i can not see any significant factor prooving this statement. Equally i just guess that Ford(with due respect) may rather not be the right person giving significant points as due nature this rather delicate field(question)may rather be something in question for an collector very expertee in both mentioned traditions and schools. I would prefer so to get an statement by experienced collectors specialised into the group of Myochin and Yagyu Tsubashi. Either way-thank you of course. Very kind Christian Quote
Soshin Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Hi David, What is the design? It looks like a stylised Saihai or Haraegushi to me. Cheers Hi Malcolm, The design is of a saihai or commanders baton. Both in Sasano's first English translated book as well as in Owari to Mikawa no Tanko there are Yagyu tsuba with this stylized saihai. Hi Christian M., In regards to your question. Under bright light faint laminar folding/layers are visible on along the rim and the inside surfaces of the ryo hitsu-ana as well as the nakago-ana. This is much more subdued compared to a Myochin tsuba I once had in my collection. It recently sold at Grey Doffin website. Here is the link: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/tsuba-%26-kodogu/t141-iron-mokume-tsuba for your reference. Hi Alan, It might have had a gimei at some point but it is impossible to tell what the inscription said if there was one in the first place. It might have been just a bit of rust along the seppa-dai that was later removed and left some shallow bits. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Alan Morton Posted October 31, 2012 Report Posted October 31, 2012 David, maybe as Christian suggests It had a Norisuke signature at some time and someone thought it might pass for Yagyu. There are some fabulous Norisuke tsuba in Owari to Mikawa no tanko that I would like to own. Alan Quote
Soshin Posted November 1, 2012 Report Posted November 1, 2012 David, maybe as Christian suggests It had a Norisuke signature at some time and someone thought it might pass for Yagyu. There are some fabulous Norisuke tsuba in Owari to Mikawa no tanko that I would like to own. Alan Hi Alan, It might have said Norisuke but at this point it is really hard to tell. I agree with Christian the tsuba was not repatinated. Norisuke and the Futogoyama school in Owari were the major producers of late 3rd generation Yagyu tsuba during the Late Edo Period. Finding Norisuke tsuba with strong Yagyu design isn't uncommon. Here is a school example that was unsigned and papered by the NBTHK to Ko-dai Yagyu: http://www.aoi-art.com/fittings/tsuba/F12184.html. I think my tsuba would paper the same way by the NBTHK if submitted. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.