Christophe Posted September 1, 2012 Report Posted September 1, 2012 For sale Papered wakizashi signed yokoyama kodzuke daijō fujiwara sukesada 横山上野大掾藤原祐定 Full polish, in shirasaya, JTK paper Smith : Sukesada (6th gen ?) Nagasa: 51.4 cm Sorii: 1.5 cm Mei: 横山上野大掾藤原祐定 (yokoyama kouzuke daijō fujiwara sukesada) Province : Bizen Hamon: Jikito or Chukudo Jihada: Itame Nakago Jiri: Ha agari kuri jiri Mune: mume-takashi (I'm trying to study Japanese sword, if you found mistake on the decryption, don'hesitate to correct me) This sword have a very small chip in one side in the ha-suji,I think it could simply repaired by a new polish. The asking price is 3200$ + S/H ; reasonable offers are welcome. Donation to NMB will be made Sword currently in Japan, expect around 6 week for delivery. Christ Quote
runagmc Posted September 1, 2012 Report Posted September 1, 2012 What kind of hamon is jikito or chukudo? Normally a straight hamon is called suguha. I've never heard the terms you used... Also I can't really see the mune well, but I'm sure it is ihori... Here again, I've never heard the term you used. The nakago is more kuri-jiri... Quote
Christophe Posted September 1, 2012 Author Report Posted September 1, 2012 I put the information I have on the JTK paper. I use a kanji-hiragana/katakana dictionnary. My Japanese have still some problemes. I post photo of the paper. Christ Quote
cabowen Posted September 1, 2012 Report Posted September 1, 2012 Sword is said to be workshop work (工房） from the Kyoho era 1716.6.22-1736.4.28. Quote
Brian Posted September 2, 2012 Report Posted September 2, 2012 Few posts deleted. Please refrain from discussing for sale items, keep that to the discussion sections. No problem with people adding useful info or translations, but no debates. Brian Quote
Eric H Posted September 2, 2012 Report Posted September 2, 2012 The additional remark „kobo“ is insofar interesting as it is perhaps rarely seen. Kozuke Daijo Sukesada *1633-1721*. There are his extant works with the production years between the Kanbun and Kyoho era and it is said that he died in 1721 at the age of 89. There is the question, is the mei by Kozuke Daijo Sukesada or is it dai-mei? Eric Quote
Jacques Posted September 2, 2012 Report Posted September 2, 2012 Hi, is the mei by Kozuke Daijo Sukesada or is it dai-mei? It si not a dai-mei. Quote
Brian Posted September 2, 2012 Report Posted September 2, 2012 Jacques....you are very good at stating what things aren't. Would be nice to hear occasionally why, or what you think they are. Brian Quote
Jacques Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Hi, Here a daimei by Yamato no kami Sukesada: I would like to go further but my comment (which confirms the saying "buy the sword not the paper") will be deleted. Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Jacques, Is YOKOYAMA and YAMATO the same SUKESADA? /Martin Quote
Jacques Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Hi, Martin, Yokoyama is the school, Yamato no kami an individual honorific title. This Sukesada was granted Yamato no kami in Shôtoku 6 (1716). Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Hi, Martin, Yokoyama is the school, Yamato no kami an individual honorific title. This Sukesada was granted Yamato no kami in Shôtoku 6 (1716). Jacques, I undestand that. Question was: Is it the same? YOKOYAMA, active period 1661-1673 Recieved title YAMATO no KAMI 1716 6th gen as opposed to 9th gen - Not 100% sure, but I challange with that information. I don't get the dates to coincide properly. /Martin Quote
Eric H Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 It is known that Yamato no Kami Sukesada has substituted Kozuke Daijo Sukesada in forging and signing. The dai-mei is dated Shotoku 5, 1715... earlier than the Kyoho „workshop“ Wakizashi. However the ji „jo“ in this Wakizashi is much different of the shoshin examples I have in my library, but there is no reason to broaden this point. Eric Quote
Jacques Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Hi, Martin, Question was: Is it the same?YOKOYAMA, active period 1661-1673 Recieved title YAMATO no KAMI 1716 Yokoyama is not a swordsmith name, Sukesada is a swordmith name (Yamato no kami was the son of Kozuke no Daijo). Eric The dai-mei is dated Shotoku 5, 1715... earlier than the Kyoho „workshop“ Wakizashi. However the ji „jo“ in this Wakizashi is much different of the shoshin examples I have in my library, but there is no reason to broaden this point. Would you be kind enough to divide with us ? Quote
cabowen Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 The paper is calling the blade workshop work which infers that it is daisaku and could be daimei as well. Since it is likely that there were several individuals working in the workshop, it is not possible to say which one signed the blade, and thus impossible to say it is not daimei with certainty. Another possibility is that the blade is simply gimei. The shinsa team, whom I know little about, after examining the blade in hand, concluded it was instead school work and papered it as such. That is their opinion. Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Eric, I know YOKOYAMA is not a swordsmith. I use it herein as a reference to the two, because they are two. We have: 横山上野守藤原祐定 yokoyama kodzuke no kami fujiwara sukesada Active period between 1661-1673 (Your comment, Eric - Kozuke Daijo Sukesada *1633-1721*. There are his extant works with the production years between the Kanbun and Kyoho era and it is said that he died in 1721 at the age of 89) We have: Yamato no Kami Sukesada, probably the same one who signed Yamato Daijo Active period Sho toku 1711 Original question was: is the mei by Kozuke Daijo Sukesada or is it dai-mei? If the answer to the question is "no", it means that it is Sho-shin or Gimei. If the answer to the question is "yes", it means what? The paper says "workshop work" (thank you Chris), which suggests that the blade is identified as work to the school, but not the signature. /Martin Quote
cabowen Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 read my comment directly above yours. Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Chris, Yes. Answer to Eric and I took a glance at you comment (I did say thank you), unfortunately I had already been composing most of my reply, which in itself was copying typed material. I'm sorry Chris. I did not mean to be rude. EDIT: Or was my answer to Jacques or both. I'm at work and a bit unfocused. Sorry /Martin Quote
Jean Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Martin, Naughty boy, you should not post while at work furthermore even this last post is totally confused and unfocussed. Back to work Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Jean, I think you are confusing me with someone else : ) /Martin aka Markus Quote
Jacques Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Hi, Martin, 山上野守藤原祐定 yokoyama kodzuke no kami fujiwara sukesada There is no Kozuke no Kami, only Kozuke no Daijô. Mister Bowen The mention *workshop* is a bit far fetched.... Quote
Eric H Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 The origami states clearly "kobo saku" Eric Quote
Jacques Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Hi, Jean You never posted here while being at work ? Eric, The origami states clearly "kobo saku" Thanks, i know that perfectly, So what ? Quote
Jean Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Impossible, Jacques, they knew me too well. There was a strong firewall at work, which prevents me to have access to anything dealing with Nihonto (as well in English, French and Japanese). :D Quote
Jean Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 Martin, Please sign all your posts as per the board rules (or next time I call you Markus) Quote
cabowen Posted September 3, 2012 Report Posted September 3, 2012 No offense taken.... Why would calling this sword a "workshop" product be far fetched? We know he lived a long life and that late in life there were daimei/daisaku being produced for Kozuke Daijo. He was a popular smith that undoubtedly had several deshi in his forge. Judging by what takes place/took place in swordsmith's forges the last 75 years or so, it would actually be quite common. Quote
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