Daisho tsuba set - help

[Jorgensen]

Hello friends,

 

I got this daisho tsuba set in trade as part of a recent sword sale, but I am not very much a tsuba/tosogu guy, unless that I think the tsuba's is very nice and seems well carved. I have tried to do my own research, and find it most similar to Soten school works... I am guessing age to late edo - 1800's... However it bothers me is that Soten works almost always seem to be signed and mostly done with some open work/sukashi?

 

As my experience in tosogu is very limited, I must admit I am not sure about any of above regarding to school, age, value and your oppinions and help about this set will be very much appreciated.

 

EDIT: I see what Jean mean and have changed the light settings and also used another camera to make new pictures. The new pictures shows better, but patina is a little more brownish irl.

 

Sizes are approx.:

 

Katana tsuba:

Length : 7.90 cm x 7.40 cm

Thickness of rim: 0.40 cm

 

Wakizashi tsuba:

Length : 7.40 cm x 6.90 cm

Thickness of rim: 0.40 cm

[Jean]

Jimi,

 

Soten tsuba are not always sukashi or signed. I am not a tsuba guy but I find these tsuba very rusted, even pited.

[Jorgensen]

Hi Jean,

 

So you think it is Soten? I have changed light and camera and shot some new pictures, that shows better... sometimes photographing nihonto, camera makes everything look worse than really is (or I am just not a good photographer ).

[Jean]

Sorry, Jimi, I can't help you for the school but you must take into account that, for the time being, I am the only one, not a tsuba guy, to have answer your post

[ROKUJURO]

.....I am not sure about any of above regarding to school, age, value and your opinions and help about this set will be very much appreciated....

The same applies to me, but I will give it a try (arrow in the sky): Both are very skilfully made TSUBA (I don't want to go into details of the preservation). The details are very well designed and executed, and differ a lot from the many SOTEN copies on the market. Good original SOTEN TSUBA I have seen pictures of were finer in detail and displayed more SUKASHI.

 

So if I said NARA, perhaps one of the more knowledgeable members here might tell us why it is not.....

[docliss]

I suspect that Jimi’s daishō is an example of that small sub-group that Graham Gemmell (1991) has labelled ‘Large Figure’ Sōten. This sub-group he describes as unlike the crowded, busy image that one associates with normal Hikone-bori work, but incorporates two or three full-length figures, filling the whole extent of the tsuba. He suggests that a slightly rectangular seppa-dai is a feature of such work, and this may be present on Jimi’s tsuba, although it is lacking in the normal over-abundance of gold nunome decoration.

 

Whence this sub-group emanates is unknown, but this daishō is probably C19 Aizu-Shōami work.

 

John L.

[Ford Hallam]

I would agree with the good Doctor's assessment, although I don't thick the quality (especially the hands and faces) are of quite the same standard as the example shown In Graham Gemmell's 'Tosogu, treasures of the samurai'.

 

All in all a fairly decent pair (as the bishop said to the actress ) , the condition is not too bad from what I can make out, apart from that spot of corrosion of the reverse of the smaller of the two. The composition and workmanship to very good with some really nice touches.

[Jorgensen]

Thank you all for your comments. Very interesting. I do not have this book. Is it possible for you to show a picture of the example from Grahams book?

 

ps. what do you recommend doing to clean up the rust spots / prevent more rust?

[Ford Hallam]

Here you go.

 

Signed "Gosgu Hikone ju Soheishi Soten sei"

 

[Ford Hallam]

and the text.

 

[Jorgensen]

Hi Ford,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to post the pictures and description from Grahams book. Very nice tsuba and appealing look.

 

I do see the similarities, like the inlaid copper, shibuichi faces and shakudo details, the gold nunome spots and others that I have pointed out on the picture and the variations described in the text of the gold color (maybe hard to see the variations of gold color on my pictures, but there is) . Of course I do clearly see the obvious mismatches too (lack of over-abundance of gold nunome, mimi amongst others). You're right that the face and hands on the tsuba from Grahams book seems more detailed, but could this be because this figure is larger and by this allow the artist to make better details?

 

Btw., this is not a try to convince you nor myself my tsuba is from this Soten group, just a tempt to write my thoughts and what I see.

 

But it brings me back to the beginning... Is my tsuba's Soten, Aizu Shoami or even perhaps some other school. Mid 1800's or 1900's? Does any have the final answer? And does any have a oppion on the value of them?

 

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH EASIER IF THE ARTIST OF THESE TSUBA, WOULD HAVE BEEN SO KIND PUT HIS SIGNATURE ON THEM

[docliss]

Jimi, as I have already spelt out for you, your daisho is a nineteenth century interpretation, by an Aizu-Shoami artist, of a Soten pair of tsuba. I do not do values ....

 

John L.

[Jorgensen]

Hello John,

 

Thank you for cutting it out in pieces for me. Please forgive me my lack of knownledge in Tsuba area. I think I have misunderstood the previous a bit. There are so many terms and schools in this area I am not entirely confident with and I think my misunderstanding was that whether the tsuba was Aizu Shoami OR Soten school...

 

Summed up: The daisho is a copy of Soten school work, made by an Aizu Shoami (school?) artist in (early-mid) 19C!

 

Well - just a thought - could that be the reason that the artist did not choose to sign the daisho.

[Jean]

80% or more tsuba that you will see are unsigned. Most of "Soten" you will see shall have a generic mei..