sanjuro

Felipe. I can only agree with what Adam and Ken have said here. I am a martial artist of some decades of experience and your post alarms me to be quite frank. The samurai were a product of a period of history that is long dead. You may admire them you may even at some point in the future understand them but you can never be a samurai. You have neither the cultural background nor the historical context in which to practice what you may at the moment think were their values. This is the twenty first century and an elitist martial class no longer exists in Japan or anywhere else for that matter, in the way it historically existed in Japan. The man you quote so readily, Miyamoto Musashi, and most of his contemporaries by todays standards would be considered at best homicidally psychopathic, even in Japan. The day and the ways of the samurai are long gone and you nor I nor anyone can aspire to be one in any meaningful sense. The study of the sword is one aspect of learning. The study of history and the place of the samurai in that history is yet another. The study of the martial arts of the elite warrior class is also a pursuit of knowledge of not only onesself but also of the perspective one has of the world around them. These are related fields of study which cannot be reconciled with a modern world except as a step on the path the human race has walked to get where he is today. Dont become possessed by some romantic ideal of your own perception of what the samurai were. As far as the use of a nihonto in any martial art, I would say DON'T. If your sensei has any sense of what is appropriate he will not encourage you to use a nihonto for tameshigiri at all. There is simply no need to emulate the samurai in this way just to feel as he might have. You cannot evoke the soul of a samurai within yourself by using the weapons of the samurai. It takes much more than that and a much deeper understanding. If you wish to view the world as the samurai might have, I suggest you study first the concepts of Zen Buddhism. That alone will take you many years to grasp. There is no malice in what I have written here, and I trust you will not take it as malicious. It is my view only of what you have posted.

Flemming. You may have already sensed the suppressed hostility of other posters to your well meaning but misled restoration of this blade. Truly it is difficult to address your question in a positive manner given that you have already committed most of the sins we consider to be the most heinous. In a more enlightened poster we would probably denounce you as a desecrator of swords rather than a restorer. However, you have at least asked here before committing further atrocities, and for that you are to a degree redeemed. I applaud your wish to conserve this blade but not your efforts to do so. Regardless of your hobby as a knifemaker, your knowledge is to nihonto what the knowledge of a hanglider pilot is to an aeronautical engineer. I do not seek to belittle you or your knowledge with this analogy, merely to place these things in some sort of context. In reality, a professional polisher would cringe at your efforts and begin again. The sharpness of the lines of this blade have been softened by your efforts and he would at least restore the crispness of those lines and planes with a foundation polish. The final stages of his work would give definition and depth to the hamon. Its hard to see by the photographs, but you have achieved only a fraction of what a professional would achieve with the same effort and possibly made necessary a more thorough polish to undo what you have done. Please dont view this response in an entirely negative light, I seek only to explain the somewhat hostile response that you may still get. Do it right by all means, but dont do it yourself !

What's being overlooked in the original post is that not all samurai went out and ordered a blade to satisfy his weaponry needs. The 'poorer' samurai being outfitted at the expense of the lord they served, were at various points in history and in various hans, issued with swords rather than being required to purchase them as the richer samurai were wont to do. A broken or damaged blade under these circumstances (as in the first instance) would simply have been replaced from the hyogo or armoury. I suspect that those swords that were repaired were either done so at the expense of the daimyo and reissued or were deliberately repaired as a favoured weapon by their owners at their own expense. I seriously doubt many samurai would have been obliged to knowingly buy a repaired sword purely due to a lack of appropriate funds. All of this however is speculative as has been observed. We cannot possibly know the extent to which swords were repaired and reissued or on the other hand repaired and reused by their owners. So endeth my contribution to this speculative thread.

not apparently to the NBTHK who have given some few of such blades Juyo status, if one is to give credence to preceding posts in this thread. A slight break on the very tip is only a fatal flaw to people who consider nihonto strictly as art. Both as a sword per se and as an artifact they are firstly still viable as a weapon, and supposing the break does not interrupt the hamon of the kissaki, then strictly speaking it is not a fatal flaw. If the boshi is entirely broken away then yes, its junk. Both as a weapon and also as a piece of art. Its still an artifact though. To my way of thinking, considering a nihonto purely as art is rather like hoarding a bottle of good red wine because its rare. Its worth nothing to its owner above the monetary value until he drinks it! Only then can it be fully appreciated. Similarly, a nihonto is firstly a weapon. It may also be a work of art. A nihonto that is created as purely a work of art solely for the viewing is something of an anathema, and a waste of a fine edge and well forged kissaki. I shall now stand by for the firestorm. :D

Am I stating the obvious when I say that many of us do not have a room that is specifically for our collections? Many, myself included have a room that houses our nihonto but serves other purposes as well, and it would not necessarily be practical to hermetically seal that room or in my case a large alcove . Its well enough to recommend that we condition the atmosphere in which our nihonto are stored or exhibited, but it is not always practical or economically viable on a large area basis. Dare I say that many of us dont live in museums where absolute control of climate, ambient temperature and humidity is paramount? That said, an alternative method of control of humidity in the form of desiccants where the climate dictates it, is sometimes the only option. Rather than descending into pompous bickering about who meant what, I would be interested to discover other practical alternatives for protection.

Jean C. I echo what Ron says. For all the solidity of its appearance metal and in this case forged iron, has at the molecular level a grain, and in that grain there are tiny interstial spaces, most particularly on the exposed surface of the worked metal where oxygen and moisture can promote oxidisation. The wax in this case being warmed, coats and fills these tiny surface spaces to exclude oxygen and moisture. In this instance we are using the surface porosity of the metal to provide a 'tooth' for the wax.

Hi David. I come late to this thread, so I apologise if I'm going over stuff that has already been said or that you already know. I have a few of these lacquered iron tsuba and have come to the same stage as you have with this one. a couple of mine have the same problem and what I have found may be of some use to you. Obviously anything that is robust enough to clean off rust is also going to remove some of the lacquer. So removal of the rust beyond the normal boning and deer antler is out of the question when trying to retain as much as possible of what is original. The rust on these tsuba does not seem to be ultra active as has been observed, one is therefore obliged to go into 'conservation mode' with any treatment decided upon. This is what has worked for me: Remove red rust by the usual method of boning and deer antler, then rub off all the red powdered rust with a soft cloth. To stop the rust re activating, a dusting with powdered wax like ibota or equally as good with renaissance wax, is almost a must for sealing the surface. Gently warm the tsuba to get some penetration over the exposed steel surface by the wax (not hot, just warm enough to soften the wax) The lacquer will not suffer from this if you are careful. The heat I use is fairly low, in fact you should be still able to touch the tsuba with your bare hands and feel only a medium warmth. I leave mine outside to warm in the sun, but I live where the sun gets quite hot and it only takes about ten minutes. Allow the tsuba to cool back to room temp and give it a gentle rub with a soft cloth. My tsuba have had this done only once, without damage to the lacquer that remains, and in ten years the surface has remained untouched by new or reactivated rust. The patina of the exposed steel has not been compromised and the lacquer has a fine low sheen to it. In all the tsuba are in excellent health and still show their age. This is the most gentle way I have found to preserve the tsuba without having them worked on by a professional.

My instincts say this is a fake. Nakago wrong. Usually the nakago is thicker at the habaki moto than the blade. This one is the other way around. This reminds me of something that was made out of a jeep spring and gently shaped with a nine inch grinder. Lots of folding flaws (if they are folding flaws) Lets just call them imperfections in the steel, even in the mune. 'reshaped' I think is something of an understatement.

Now there's an interesting line of speculation. I have wondered why such a battered and decrepit tsuba has survived and been preserved so long. It is not beyond possibility that this old tsuba has been preserved because it was indeed a relic of some note or of some significance to someone. Perhaps even a battlefield relic. God (or probably more appropriately Buddha), knows that Japan is littered with old siege sites, temples and battlefields. There is nothing to tie it specifically to the Edo period as the seller supposed, beyond a similar speculation on his part, and indeed it could be quite a bit older. Pure speculation of course, but at least a positive light in which to contemplate this piece beyond Ford's esoteric aesthetic proclivities.

Matt. What you seem to be missing the point of here is that a sword is usually made of steel, ergo it has a carbon content. Pure iron (at 99.9% it would be as pure as possible), makes lousy swords which tend to bend even under their own weight and cannot hold an edge. Something is obviously amiss with the spectrometer reading or the guy interpreting the reading. The opinions given here are based only upon photographic evidence, yet they are seldom if ever entirely wrong, being founded in years of experience and a thorough group knowledge of the subject. Military swords and the materials from which they were made in particular are well documented and I would hazard a guess that none of them are made of what is definable as 'pure' iron. Even so, in the final analysis it is not a nihonto, being a machine made bar stock blade of second world war vintage. It is basically militaria. Little is known about some of the 'smiths' engaged in these factory operations, so nothing in effect can be relayed to you concerning the mei on your sword. However, if you think it is a beautiful sword then so be it. With no intention of being adversarial here, I'm just telling it like it is.

Having been one of the people to originally state that the wabi-sabi aesthetic was a tad over the top on this piece I feel compelled to add my voice to Curran's. There is a point at which wabi -sabi ends and pure decrepitude begins. I think for me at least this tsuba has passed that point. Someone has said it is still functional. A matter of opinion of course, but I certainly wouldnt mount it and expect it to function as any other than a negative cosmetic appelation. As an artifact it has a certain charm and even an artistic merit as something that has been embellished by the cruel hand of time and the destructive hand of the elements. Thus it is a work of many sculptors and only one of them human. The work of the human agent is all but obliterated, and is evidenced only in the shape and what remains of his chisel work. As a work of nature it stands as testiment to the temporary nature of all things and thus it is wabi- sabi. As a tsuba however, it is a tragedy.

Hmmmmm Is it just me or is the wabi sabi aesthetic just a tad 'over the top' on this one?????? Remarkable that the nakago ana is relatively intact and not more eroded.

Kevin. Yes, its late Edo and we do tend to discount tsuba of this vintage somewhat as more 'contrived' in appearance than earlier pieces. However, the artist of this tsuba was dealing with a subject that is apart from the stem at the very base of the design, a symetrical object. Particularly since it is also the mon of the Tachibana. The tentative and overmeasured observation you make is in my mind perhaps due to this and the fact that he was dealing with a fairly shallow carving. The finish on this piece is very pleasing and quite precise to my eye. But..... what the heck do I know about tsuba? You guys have probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn about them.

David. For what my opinion may be worth, because I am by no means a tsuba afficianado, although I seem to own rather a lot of the darn things for someone who professes no interest in them. However, my tastes go to the tactile qualities of tsuba and this one has a very pleasing mix of texture to it, I rather like the purplish patina as well.

Chris. Yes, I see what you mean, but would just the tip of the nakago being cut off be suriage or just nakagojiri okuri?????? Just kidding. You are quite right of course, I forgot about those over long tapered nakagojiri that were produced by shinshinto smiths. It makes sense that some were trimmed to look very like this sword.

To answer the question in the original post, the blade is not suriage so I dont quite understand why this is considered a conundrum. Is it because of the kiri nakago? It is not that rare or remarkable for a shinshinto blade to present this way with a shinobi ana. Many were made as copies of old tachi blades, or at least in the styles of the old Gokaden. Hard to say without at least a sugata pic. I've looked briefly at Aoi Art but cant locate the sword on the site. A link would be really helpful.

Chris. Suggestion: Put up pics of the tachi and its koshirae. You never know what's out here in NMB land, and maybe one of us owns a tsuba we are willing to part with that will suit your sword, your pocket and your taste. Apart from that, we are a curious bunch that likes pictures. Myself in particular since I collect tachi and tachi tosogu :D

David and Curran I have overlooked a number of possibilities not just this one. However, I'm dealing here on general principles, and I did say.... I then balanced it by the caveat...... The unfortunate thing about ebay is that the opportunity it offers to the honest seller, to sell their goods without the high premium of doing so through a dealer, it also offers with equal impunity to those sellers who are less than honest, and sometimes downright dishonest. As with any unregulated market it abounds with the good, the bad and the ugly. No offense intended to those on the board who have listings on ebay, since this is just my take on ebay generally.

I think that there are one or two principles that we tend to overlook when dealing on ebay, and they bear reiteration. Generally speaking, swords on ebay are there because they are not of a quality that dealers would care to handle. When we see swords by a dealer on ebay it is because of (a) The dealer wants to turn the sword around quickly, or, (b) it is not of a quality that he is usually associated with and which he would risk his reputation on. Usually they are listed by dealers accordingly and if they have papers one must bear in mind that the sword in question may have been polished after those papers were issued and some faults may have emerged in that final polishing. It is legitimate that such swords should appear on ebay in order to realise the best possible return for the dealer. The 14 day return policy is certainly a measure of security, but not a guarantee as it is often viewed by prospective buyers. Remember that the objectives of an auction are, (a)From the sellers point of view, to realise the best possible price, and (b) if you are a buyer, then the prime motivation is to get the sword at the lowest possible price. I always have a problem rationalising these two objectives in a way that satisfies both parties, but hey, what the hell, it seems to work. Swords listed by non dealers quite frankly are suspect and usually sub standard. In most cases they have been rejected by a dealer or the seller is trying to bypass the dealer, cut out the middle man and maximise his profit from the item. None of this, regardless of return policies, works in the buyer's favour. When you deal on ebay, you deal at the bottom of the market, with all the risks and caveats that dealing at a low level intimates. Sure there are honest dealers on ebay and genuine non dealer sellers too. There are also peddlers of fakes and sellers who are there to deliberately take you for a ride. God grant you the wisdom to distinguish between the two and all the shades of grey that seperate them.

What everyone in this discussion is ignoring is the plain fact that this sword in fact any comparatively modern sword, with a nakago in such a condition has literally no value whatever except possibly as an artifact of unknown provenance. The blade is bent with a chip at the point of the bend. In other words its overall condition as a blade is suspect. Mantetsu or not, its a battered gunto blade. Sorry but the world is full of them. Silly romanticism aside, what value or interest on any level is it supposed to represent?

We are bordering here on a discussion that would encompass the decline of swordsmanship post Momoyama period, versus the comparative quality of koto and shinto and shinshinto blades. It would be a fascinating study. I suggest however, that it would be so as a separate topic rather than hijacking this excellent Edo Corner classification that so many of us enjoy for the variety it offers.

David. I hear what you say and I agree with you. However, without having dealt with them previously, how do you pick the good sellers??? For newbies ebay is a minefield. OK for experienced nihontophiles who have at least some idea of what to look for, what a fake looks like etc, but a newbie in amongst all the ebay predators has about the same chance of escaping unscathed as a snowball in hell.

John. The experiment with kendoka using bokken or a live blade as opposed to a shinai would indeed be interesting if anyone could organise it without having anyone killed during the experiment. :lol: The use of a live blade particularly would introduce a whole new dimension to Kendo. Kabuto sales would go through the roof! Then of course they wouldn't be able to execute mengiri. The technique as executed in kendo is impossible when wearing most styles of kabuto. Seriously, as far as the blade breakage thing is concerned, there is no doubt that the steel used in sword making during shinto and shinshinto times was a significant factor as was the swordsmiths practice of making comparatively wide hamon on later swords. These factors made the blades of the time more brittle and hence more prone to breakage. Add to this the element of hitting as opposed to cutting in the technique of swordsmen of the time, and you have a recipe for a high incidence of blade breakage. My instincts tell me there was a combination of factors responsible for high incidences of blade breakage, of which the few we have spoken of here were part. Poor technique does compromise a blade, but i wonder to what extent, and what other factors such as brittle steel contributed to the breakage 'syndrome'.

Ford. Are you sure its not your wife thats looking for a younger you? On second thoughts probably not... One of you is enough even for the most tolerant woman. :D Dammit! I wish Brian hadn't fiddled around with the time on this board. All the posts are coming out of order and will do for the next six hours or so.......

Hi John. No... Mengiri in Kendo Is not the same as mengiri in kenjutsu. In Kendo the strike is exactly that.. a strike and in really bad form it is a push motion at the end of the blade's travel with the swordsmans arms fully extended. As you know, Mengiri in essence is a circular motion of the hands overhead. In kenjutsu, in fact also in Iaijutsu, there is a slight reaching of the arc above the head where the swordsman's arms are fully extended and as the blade impacts the men it is actually being pulled back toward the swordsman's body partly by the swordsman and also by the natural reduction of the arc as the hands fall below the impact point. As you have mentioned, a swordsman cuts through his target rather than striking it. The hands actually lead the blade slightly throughout the cut. The result is a cutting motion rather than a hitting motion. Its worthy of note that apart from this difference in technique, the weapon involved is also significantly different. The shinai is dead straight and lends itself more readily to hitting whereas a bokken is curved and more easily enables and encourages a cutting motion in the technique. In addition to this, the nature of kendo which is, and as far as I know has historically been fought to a set of rules and limitations, puts emphasis on the men cut whereas kenjutsu which does not have such rules and limitations, does not. Kenjutsu allows for many possible targets whereas kendo has limited legitimate targets. This limitation in kendo allows more use of the men cut since one does not need to defend as many allowable targets on one's own body. The men cut creates weaknesses (in fact it leaves you wide open to a counter move) that are more easily exploited in kenjutsu by virtue of the greater number of possible cuts. It is this difference that Thomas was referring to in the type of swordsmanship employed by the bakamatsu swordsmen. In essence they were using the sword more as a shinai than as a sword because most of their training was with a shinai. Also of course they did not have the practical experience with a sword that comes from the battlefield where there are no rules at all. I dont know what sort of kendo was taught under Hidetsugu, but a shinai does not allow you to defend in the same way as a bokken does, Also, arms and legs, armour weak points and a knowledge of nerve and blood vessel locations to name only a few differences are not taught as targets in kendo as they are in koryu kenjutsu. Whitesticks, the forerunner of kendo prior to Hidetsugus time, did not have many rules but the bokken was essentially solid and straight, and its exponents wore a great deal of padding to prevent injury. God... I could go on forever about the differences, but essentially modern Kendo has less to do with combat and more to do with excercise, reflexes and in modern times a more sporting application. Historically it was a method of keeping samurai fit and marginally familiar with the use of a sword. Coupled with other forms of training, it supplies part of a curriculum of practical swordsmanship. No criticism there, each of the sword arts has its place in swordsmanship. Sorry... didnt mean to ramble on.