klee

The polish is just rough. The boshi is pretty clear in this one photo.

@Lewis B I was just admiring that when they posted. Definitely a unicorn. What is this activity called ? Nijuba ? Or an effect of being very worn down. Looks pretty extreme Never really had a high res look at a Heian blade

Hi @Prewar70 I started out as a Kiyomitsu collector and love their work. Unlike Sukesada, there were not that many recordedSue Bizen Kiyomitsu smiths ( 12 or so from 1500 to 1590 ) Unfortunately for this blade I can comfortable say it is a gimei. The nakago is off and the signature doesnt match sue bizen as well. Specifically the way the "Osa" 長 kanji is written with the rounded stroke is something never done by Kiyomitsu. The hamon pattern is also something you would not see from Kiyomitsu The mekugi ana should be punched not drilled. And the position of the mei relative to the ana is way off for sue bizen as well. The very small and tight hada you see might point to a shinshinto blade but I am not knowledgable in post Koto works. And for future refercence you will see that the Bizen / Bishu signature does not really correlate to quality in Sue Bizen. Esp for Kiyomitsu Best regard -Kevin

@eternal_newbie That Masahiro is magnificent indeed. I also know it s massively out of my price range 🤣. I do have that saved and its always great to see what the original sugata from aome of these old schools look like These were the 2 I was considering potentially https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_ja_tachi&katanaA070425.html https://world-seiyudo.com/product/ska-030126/

Thank you @Rivkin as always for the insight. it s just that I ve never personally seen a Ko Mihara with a Masaie attribution or any other Ko Mihara smith. But Masanobu seems to come up fairly often by comparison so I wasnt sure if he just made a lot of swords or if it was an NBTHK tendancy. Same with Hokke with a nanbokucho smith attribution. I ve seen a few Ichijo but I believe he s more Muromachi. I ve also seen Sukekuni who s supposedly the founder but no mention of Hokke connection. As much as I love Hokke blades, their timeline and lineage has always confused me. With sources saying they came about in the Muromachi and NBTHK attributions saying Hokke - Nanbokucho

Good Afternoon I wanted to get some thougths from someone more knowledgable on the Mihara school Mihara ( specifically Ko Mihara ) and their off shoot Hokke have been one of my favorite schools for a while and been potentially looking to get one soon. One thing I noted was that I see them come up as Ko Mihara or Mihara Masanobu - Nanbokucho to Oei . Never with another smith. I know Masanobu is calssified as one of if not the last Ko Mihara smith but is this bc Masanobu is a generic safe attriution for Ko Mihara that looks like it can be Oei or was he a prolific well established smith with a definitive work style ? And in addition, is there a defining difference in workmanship/ features between Ko Mihara and Hokke. I often cant tell the difference maybe for Hokke having a more stout sugata than Mihara. Thank you kindly -Kevin

And I feel like this sword is well deserving of a sayagaki. The workmanship is top tier for Sue Bizen and this size ( esp with the long nakago ) is unusual even for Eiroku/ Tensho / Momoyama Sukesada

My god what a blade in perfect polish. Hadori could never do this blade justice

Certainly not worthless since it is still an authentic nihonto. And depending on the blade condition/size 260,000 yen is quite resonable esp for a long blade. I wouldnt mind paying that if I loved a blade that I knew was gimei.

The fittings are certainly chinese and not authentic but the nakago will definitely confirm for the blade. Id be leaning towards very likely not authentic

I know I ll be in the overwhelming minority But while the new polish gives a stunning contrast, I just prefer and love the look of the original. Beautiful, honest and calm. And while modern polishing has it s beauty, I notice that much of the ko hada is inevitably subdued when the steel is darkened and the hadori becomes harsh in the background

@HoustonNihonto Thats amazing ! Id love to see photos when you have it !

Mauro, I am so sorry to hear this and I will certainly pray for a good outcome keep an eye out for it. This is always something I fear when shipping or expecting swords. And PS: Thank you again for the Moritaka blade it turned out to be a quite a unique sword for the school and I ll forever treasure it in my collection. And I also remember that one taking quite a long time by USPS from TX to NY Wishing for the best -Kevin

Quite an interesting thread this has turned into but trying to attach historical importance based only on who/when a particular sword was made is I think a bit over romanticizing. Swords were made for a thousand years. While I believe all of them are deserving of respect and preservation , 99.9% of them are not historically important. This blade in particular may or may not even be genuine since it hasnt been submitted and gimei are frequent for well known names. Add in the diy restoration and it may or may not have been rendered worthless. Yes oiling it and leaving it covered in the stable black rust is an infinitely better choice.

Some great examples @Jussi Ekholm #2 would def take the top spot for me with size and a beautiful boshi but I do agree that #3 has the best shape but Im also fairly biased towards okissaki. I havent seen many Hoju come around but they do catch my eyes whenever I see one. Has that perfect rustic feel with a wild feeling jigane. What was it that made it your favorite school ?

@Jussi Ekholm, @Hoshi Thank you so much for the insight as always 🙏🙏🙏 My interests are similar to Jussi as I favor schools that produce rustic/stout blades. The sort of blades that would be considered " lacking elegance" and "artistic value" 😅 I dont think I will ever reach the level of ever considering blades at these price levels but intricacies and nuances when evaluating such blades will always fascinate me. I am very grateful to have knowledgable forum members for whenever these questions eat away at me. Thank you again 🙏

Good Evening How do the high end collectors generally read into big names attached to mid level papers ? The 2 examples I see right now that jump out is the Den Go thats been talked about before https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-：mumei-unsigned-den-gonbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/ And a Shintogo Kunimitsu tachi https://eirakudo.shop/105943 With both big names having only TokuHo, is it reasonable to assume that both blades stayed at TokuHo due to the high probability of them being re-attributed to a lesser name if it went Juyo ? And is there definitive right or wrong path for an owner to take ? i.e try for Juyo or leave it at TokuHo Thank you for any insight as im not familiar with the general politics in the papering side when it comes to titanic names -Kevin

This a great topic As Lewis stated above, Tamahagane production/distribution became more and more centralized as time went on. This was also a gradual process throughout the koto periods but really became mainstream in shinto ( edo ) periods. While it could be argued that steel quality became more consistant , it inevitably lost all the regional characteristics of steel that once appeared in the old works. There is ( and will always be ) much great debates trying to pin down the cause for the great artistic ( not functional ) decline in swords over time and the loss of regional characteristics of steel likely has a big part in it

The green ( old ) nbthk paper doesnt really have any value today unfortunately. If resale was a concern then a new NBTHK shinsa submission would be wise but that would put this blade at well north of $4000 usd in investment which is equivalent to some very nice signed Hozon/Toku Hozon wakizashi in todays market so I personally dont think it s worth it. Plus you d be waiting about 4-6 months for the blade and paper I would just stick with the NTHK paper if you love the blade and plan on keeping it

It s all personal preference at the end of the day depending on what the buyer likes. But a mumei edo wakizashi without NBTHK papers for over $3700.00 USD is an extreme no for me personally

Hi @Gerry no worries Also this is a Tokuno Kazuo appraisal certificate and not NTHK either. The papers somewhat look similar but I ve heard mixed opinion about Kazuo. I would think anytime a big name like Gassan coming up today without NBTHK would be quite the red flag

Also no NBTHK papers so Id be skeptical

The "Bishu" vs " Bizen ( no ) kuni ju " mei talk comes up every so often. This is probably the most extreme example I ve seen to never associate mei format with quality for sue bizen https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：katana-in-shirasaya-with-koshirae-28th-juyo-token-signature-bishu-osafune-sukesada-hikobei-no-jo-sukesada-a-day-in-february-eisho-6-1509-28th-juyo-token/

@Shugyosha It s certainly a head scratcher and I guess we ll never know why someone would fake a Tensho Sukesada. Perhaps any sengoku Sukesada was seen was worthwile at that point and time

Hi @CNS_44 You are right about the "Ju" character and this is most certainly gimei. On top of that, the sugata does not fit sue bizen at all. Shinto Sukesada smiths signed with the " Ju " after "Osafune" and this was likely a shinto forgery attempt that overlooked this