Arthur G

Quite the contrary Grey, it's incredibly important. There is much to learn from studying the work of different people in the community as well as their business practices. I've learned many things about armor by studying people who are either poorly skilled restorers or create fakes; it helps me to better understand the original artisans and their mindsets as the fakers always make profound divergences from the original works without being aware of it. If you are not aware of those people in the community and their works, you'll develop a very bad eye for the real thing. At the end of the day, these things are all being made by people, not appearing out of the ether. It's just as important, in my opinion, to be familiar with the workers as their work.

Well, that definitely clears up any doubts I had about you Andy. All of that is easily provable, and it's concise. Admittedly I had heard these rumors in circulation around the community before, and always wondered what the truth of it was; but now I clearly can pinpoint the source of them after seeing this interaction. Very few people know Dave's character as well as I do; in fact I would say I'm somewhat of an authority on it along with a few others. As an outside observer familiar with aspects of the situation, it's quite clear to me now what has happened here and behind the scenes. I must apologize for how I may have viewed you in the past before this due to your associations with Mr. Thatcher, but I see now you're just another victim like many others. The style of accusatory public defamation is quite familiar. You tell him to "please stop", but no, I'd like him to keep talking. I think it's best if the community sees him as he is, in his own words; there's nothing I could say about the man that would compare to how he carries himself.

So much I want to respond to here, but even just having dipped my toes in the water with this world for a few years I can relate to nearly every aspect of that already. It's honestly nice hearing all of this in a way because I know it's not just me. I've dealt with some wild stuff already in a short time. Here are just a couple of things on my end. I decided early on I am not going to be a restorer. I'm happy to stabilize things in emergency situations, but full on restoration I just don't have the stomach for. It's too nerve wracking for me. I realized early on that there's an unfilled niche with traditional armor being made to be worn and used. Currently this niche is filled for reenactors with non-traditional armor made in factories in China. People can either get it direct from there, or in the case of Japan, the components are made in China and then finished out by the Japanese company. For me, pressed out plates and modern paints just don't do it. And the majority of it is also based on Edo period styles that never saw a day of combat... So, I thought to myself, I should focus on making simple, war time armor. For now, I'm just focusing on kabuto for the most part, but I do want to branch out to suneate and dou. The hard part is making it affordable for people; I have to in essence work in accordance with the prices already set by Chinese factories. For your average person that is not a wealthy collector but rather a reenactor or martial artist, even a $3-5000 suit from China is a huge, huge investment. Charging more than that is a huge turn off. At the same time, the wealthy collectors won't have any interest in my work for a whole host of reasons. So, I'm trying to develop things that are as traditional as possible (some materials are extremely difficult to come by; for example I am having to use certain local substitutes for fusube-gawa), while still being something affordable to the kind of person that actually wants to use it. It's a tough niche to fill... The worst aspect of it is the tastes of the public have been shifted by the modern production line armor. In many cases your average person actually prefers the look of that to the real thing. I can't tell you how many people in this range of customers actually think of urushi as a negative thing, being convinced it's a poisonous substance and that the paint is actually superior... I could write a whole book about all of this but it'd bore everyone to tears. The other issue is being approached by people with very, very ill intentions. In one case, I had someone demanding me give over all of my technical specs and knowledge on matchlocks for his company to reproduce them in India. I asked, will they be doing this at all traditionally? Will there be any effort made to actually help revive Japanese gunsmithing? Will you use oak and urushi for the stocks? etc. etc. Of course it was a flat out no. They lauged at the idea of that. Then they went on to tell me they wanted it all for free, and accused me of gatekeeping by setting exorbitant prices for my matchlocks. The reality of it is I'm charging a laughably low price for them, but nonetheless they accused me of setting the price at five times of what I actually was. It turned into some bizarre social justice thing where I owed it to them so they could undercut me and make non-traditional matchlocks for a price just below mine. Needless to say I gave them an earful. They then offered to buy one from me to copy, and of course by that point in the conversation I couldn't take them seriously. Another time I was approached by a collector who wanted a replacement nose for a menpo. I have a rule that I make all of my projects more or less public, trying to show each stage so people know exactly what they are getting from me. I don't hide anything. I told this collector first and foremost that I don't do any "secret" restoration work for people. I also firmly believe in mismatching replacement parts in terms of finish. Not overly so, but enough that it is apparent it is a replacement part, and cannot easily be made to appear original so as to scam people. To be extra safe, I add secret marks to my stuff only I know about in case a situation ever comes up. This collector wanted me to make a tengu nose for this menpo; immediately my radar was going off. There was of course no evidence this particular menpo ever originally had one. When I told him my above stipulations of mismatching and also making my work public, he bargained at first, and then when I didn't budge he cut the conversation. It's easy to get worn down with all of this because you have more things working against you than for you. Trying to be an honest person in this world punishes you more often than not.

Originally my business was being built around matchlocks. Then I decided to focus specifically on the Kishuu style since their gunners had by far the most interesting history. I realized long term I'd like to see more people reenacting outside of Japan. However, traditional armor is not really all that available, let alone Saika style armor. Might as well make some helmets to go with the matchlocks right? How hard can it be? Turns out it's very, very hard I made a prototype and put out a call to people following my page, saying I'd take up a commission. I figured it'd be easy since I already had a prototype made, but I made so many refinements to it that it ended up being far more work. Still trying to finish it out, but thankfully my customer has been very patient with me through the whole process. I dabble in a few other things here and there, but reviving Kishuu gunsmithing and Saika style armoring are my main focus. There are still people out there trying to keep the traditions alive; what makes things difficult, in my humble opinion, is how fragmented the community is. There are generations long feuds and sore feelings between different factions. There are scammers and frauds who have caused a great deal of damage... One of the biggest things is the original industry/economy/logistics is long gone; so in order to do this stuff nowadays, you have to take on a lot more skillsets as one person, doing the work of many specialists. There are lots of barriers to entry; it's not impossible, but you have to want it badly enough is my opinion on it. You have to love it, and in a way remove yourself from it. You have to be as objective as possible with analysis of originals, and focus on making it as close as possible. Rather than a mentality of "how do I trick people into thinking this looks like the real thing", just make the real thing.

Kadoya Kouji is one of the most traditional I know of, but he mostly keeps to himself, hence why he's not very well known publicly. He's very transparent with the process however! He doesn't give out finer trade secrets with his public posts, but he shows the gist of what's going on. He's been working on a copy of the kindami-gusoku for the last couple of years, and it's his most thoroughly documented and posted project. He has a lot of other things he's posted up as well though. His handle online is "Japanese Armor Factory" for anyone curious. As for myself, I've tried to start off the right way and avoid substitutes as much as possible from the get-go, even though it's made it a very rough and slow start. Currently, the only thing that I'm not doing fully old-school yet is forging out my own sheets, but that will change sooner rather than later. Need to replace a couple of tools too

There are a few of us around, but we're rare birds; there are only four foreign kacchushi, and I'm only a 2 year deshi This is one I've been working on for a long time now. Have had a lot of problems trying to figure out the shikoro. People wildly underestimate the amount of research involved I think; I spend more time researching than with a hammer in hand.

He sounds like he was a real character. His loss is profound to say the least, but he has left a legacy behind in you. I think it's important to always remember this is a living tradition; it's not something that is just contained in extant pieces or a thing of the past, but something that lives on through the people taking part in it today. The human element is the most important part of all of this, and as a community we too often forget that. Sharing his humanity like this is the true treasure, rather than a list of titles or achievements. Thank you Andy.

Great stuff Marc, I can't thank you enough Every bit of info is priceless to me.

Ah man, thanks you guys! Could not have done it without you two, so I really appreciate the help.

How's this for a first attempt? I have room to improve here. The hole for the retaining leather is too high up sadly, and I wasn't able to get the seam on the roll pin straight (hand forged it from a small sheet of brass). I tried to imitate the flaws in the hole at the top that seem to be prevalent on originals. Still need to do a final polish and patinate it.

Just attempted making the roll pin from scratch, and got it on my second try! Not perfect as the seam twists along the length of it rather than being totally straight, so room to improve there, but this is definitely how they did it.

Definitely does! Same line of thinking I had looking at the wear on the pan cover to gauge the pin size, so I think our brains work in a similar way. I'll give your method a try, it seems very similar to other parts I've seen!

It looks to me like there is a seam on the head as well, so they probably rolled it first, inserted it into a wooden or metal plate with a hole of the same diamter drilled out, mashed it with a hammer, then drilled it out a little at the top to clear out the excess material. You can see looking at it that it looks like it was done with a square bit Japanese hand drill. A lot of the parts on these guns were not made at all like people think. Some things were cast, some weren't, and it's really dependent on the style. For example, it seems like none of the parts on Kishu guns were cast. The square shape that people notice about them is a biproduct of the manufacturing method. How they were done was they cast a tapered plate out of brass, and cut everything out of that. How do I know this? If you hold up a lockplate, hibasami, outer spring, etc, they're all of the same thickness and taper. If you look on the edges there are often still sawmarks that they didn't completely hide, especially on the inner side of the outer springs. I can't really speak with any authority on other regional manufacturing methods currently though. Aspects of these are far less complex than people think, and some things are far more. I'm finding different brass mixes for different parts on guns, and it is consistent throughout. Very intentional. Another thing I haven't seen others comment on is the use of silver solder. I assumed it was anachronistic to use that, but after looking over lots of different locks I've started finding it more and more. Talking about Kishu specifically, the way the head of the hibasami is attached is through silver soldering.

Dear lord it is a rolled sheet, I was doing this completely wrong!!! Ok, I can see exactly how they made this now, thanks a bunch piers!!!

Fantastic, that's what I thought. Have a pile of old guns here I'm holding onto/restoring for a friend, and none of them have pins for me to look at. I'm very happy with the overall shape of the first one I made, but had a severe screw up with drilling it out and realized "huh, they probably didn't do it this way". So, is it a rolled sheet or a drilled out rod? Got any clear photos I could have a look at? The way to really tell I think would be to look at the underside of the head, and see if it's flush or concave.

One part I'm struggling with making right now is the pan cover pin. I'm not quite sure how they were made. My first attempt just now was a failure. If anyone has super closeups of one or insights, I'd greatly appreciate. My first attempt was using a brass rod that I had to file down considerably but leaving extra material for the head. I then drilled all the way through to hollow it out and the hole was way off center when it came out the other side. Were these completely hollow? And if so, were they made out of a solid rod, or out of a rolled sheet? Thanks for any insights in advance guys!

Every little bit of info like that is useful for me Piers. This explains why some of the older guns I've been restoring seem to have issues with the bisen not squaring up right anymore.

Marc these photos are absolutely fantastic!!! Measurements are great too with the ruler in the pic, that means I can digitally scale it off the ruler. Wonderful gun, absolutely love it! Sorry to hear about the situation with your bisen not lining up correctly They're a fickle creature. I have one I'm struggling with right now on a restoration I'm doing for a customer. Piers, this is a pretty out there question, but in your opinion, which is better? The ones that end just before the touch hole, or the ones with a slot cut in them? Have you noticed any appreciable change in ignition time or anything else?

Alright, one other request here Marc, can you measure for me how deeply the bisen is threaded into the breech? Thanks!

Those are still helpful Piers, appreciate it! So far I've tracked down three types of ama-ooi, but this is the only one I haven't gotten any good details on so far.

One thing I am in desperate need of is photographs (disassembled) and measurements of a particular type of Ama-ooi seen on Kishu guns, which is the type that uses a screw to retain it. All I can find online are a few scant photos here and there. This is the type I'm referring to. Unfortunately, the brass parts in this particular collection have been very poorly repolished:

Thanks Marc, no rush! I really appreciate the help.

I have been summoned! Hey there Marc, super nice Kishu-zutsu there. I have a few locks and stocks but no barrel, so I'm desperately grifting for measurements and closeups anytime people are willing to share them. I'm planning on making these regularly as the main product for my business, but right now I'm in the stages of making my first "prototype". If you're up for it, any measurements you can provide of the sights, tenons, pan, basically ANYTHING attached to the barrel. Measurements of the barrel itself, such as the thinnest part on the swamp, how far up that is on the barrel, width at the muzzle and the very tail end, anything helps! No need to take apart the lock for me unless you have real hankering to, I'm pretty well set on that for now. I can tell it's already a true Kishu with the nut, and thankfully I have a couple of complete ones. Maybe someday when I'm not impoverished I can pick up a complete gun