Arthur G

Bad restoration work is more often than not worse than none at all. This is something important for the community to realize I think.

An important thing is this. Antique Dealers are often very well known for doing all sorts of mischief to make things sell. For example, if an Antique Dealer takes a nice old 19th century table, strips it down to bare wood, and refinishes it poorly with modern materials, is he now a carpenter? Of course not. The same goes for armor. The man in question is now and always has been an Antique Dealer. Nothing else. Go to professionals like Andy if you want restoration.

Here's a weird one. I have it filed away as a zukin, but it feels like it's in the same family.

Well Barry, I gotta hand it to you, you just filled in one of the last gaps I needed to show the evolution of the "modern" zunari You have something quite special here, which goes into what I describe as the final transitional era before the modern Edo style zunari. I'd personally place this in the 1590's. A couple of things here, would you mind measuring the thickness where possible? And can you see if the koshimaki has been redrilled at any point in its lifetime? If not then this is very exciting indeed. It's rare that things get posted these days that get me excited. There are lots of fake ko-zunari and things of that nature in circulation right now, so I usually expect disappointment. I mostly focus on the works of Mitsusada from this era due to my focus on Saika-bachi, but that hari-bachi is one I've been trying to track down more photos of for a while now. You can see it's clearly made by the same hand as your zunari. When I do the sequel thread to this, focusing on the evolution of the zunari, would you mind if I include your example?

Look close at where it bends after the mabizashi, and how uneven it is in parts. I don't think it was flared out much further in the past, so the cuts may not have been necessary on this one.

Judging by hole re-drilling and placement, combined with the distortion in the koshimaki that implies to me it was flattened out a bit whereas it was once likely more flared out, I think it was remounted with a hineno-jikoro. Likely originally had something more broad like your first two examples there, such as a manju, ko-manju, etchu, etc. That's just my opinion though.

It's a nice find. I have some thoughts but I'm a moron when it comes to suji-bachi. I'm excited to see what some others say. That rivet with the washer inside is something I know the Saotome did. The shape of it reminds me of a Gitsu but I'm sure I'm wrong there. The holes redrilled in the koshimaki makes me think something on the older side of things. I think you stumbled into a very nice find. Edit: Reviewed some things. I'd bet money on Saotome looking at the mabizashi style as well as the Shiten-no-byo and hibiki-no-ana.

Now that catches my eye Luc! Is it a kindou or is there leather mixed in there?

I'm quite familiar with oyamazumi-jinja guys, I just haven't looked over these specific examples in detail. As much information as possible on these would be appreciated. They look Western in origin to my eye rather than Eastern. Any dates or locations would help! In regards to your thoughts earlier Thomas, sorry for the late reply but I've been thinking a lot about it. Personally, for me, it would be too much of a coincidence for it to have developed on its own across the country at the same time. Local areas all made kabuto, but few areas produced dou in large volumes. Nara being one of the biggest of course. In my opinion, and of course all of this is conjecture, it would be easier to see it developing in the East and some production center like Nara catching wind of it, with it spreading from there as a focal point. My group spends a lot of time researching maritime trade lanes and the spread of technologies during this time, and it's been quite surprising. Things got around and influenced each other far more than any of us had anticipated. I'd like to leave it at that though for now in regards to the trade lanes as there is a lot we plan on publishing in the future.

No the image quality is fine! These are actually quite excellent photos. Do you have information on each individual example? I'd greatly appreciate it

Bontenmaru is Date Masamune's childhood name, right? I messaged that account earlier at 1:50AM UK time just to make sure it was you, and it didn't get a response, whereas it was height of internet activity stateside. Did you download a free vpn? So, tell me, what's special about this photo Dave? Come on, let's see if you spot it.

Like I keep saying, I'll let the man speak for himself because he does a better job than I can.

Why did the seller who chopshopped this armor claim the maedate was original when he swapped it out? Which we can 100% prove. Let's start with the simple things here. Can you explain that lie? Is this a business practice that you endorse?

Absolutely agree Luc, which is why the old stuff appeals to me. When it loses its original purpose, I can't help but lose interest. I guess a huge part of me just isn't able to appreciate the artistic side of it all.

I think it's very important to think of these in terms of usage and not to see them as static objects. In essence, I'd advocate to always think of these in terms of motion. It's hard to describe what I mean with this, but, we get so used to seeing them sitting stoically on stands that they become statues in our subconscious I think, whereas it's a very dynamic object at its core. A big part of the reason I am focusing on reproduction and doing it in modern sizes is so these can be experienced the way they were meant to be. It's the same with the matchlocks as well.

Great question! I don't have a huge amount to say on this as my focus is generally on the Kansai region, but, here's the basics. Eastern armor has a tendency towards being heavy duty and incorporating far more steel/iron than Western armor (Western Japan of course, not talking about foreign things). There was greater accessibility to it for one thing. The other big influence is doctrine. The East made much more use of cavalry than the West, whereas Western doctrine relies a lot more on fighting on foot and in many cases using skirmisher warfare. Most people fall into the trap of "which armor is the best?" and it really should be phrased as "which armor is the best for which type of warfare?". When we look at the oldest all metal dou, they come from the East generally speaking. The earliest descriptions and orders that have survived also come from there. Here is an example of what I mean when I say we need to look at doctrine and why certain armor develops the way it does. When I look at Saika-bachi, I see now so many subtle design features made for the sake of gunnery, especially with what we have discovered so far recreating Tsuda-ryu. The shape of the mabizashi conforms to the shape of the stocks and our hold for example. A mask is not conducive to accurate shooting due to the lack of a cheek weld; the solution was to give the face as much coverage as possible while not interfering with the stock, hence the interesting variety of cheek guards we see. The coverage afforded, the emphasis on certain points of the helmet in protection, and the shape of the shikoro conform perfectly to one of our stances that utilizes cover. When aiming at the gunner, all you really see is the top of his head. The okitenugui seem to largely have used a wide single lame shikoro at this time, which won't interfere with this position. The uchidashi work and the strong join of the top plate at the forehead gives great protection against projectiles from this angle as well, with the slope being perfect for deflection. Now, would this type of helmet be useful for cavalry in Eastern Japan? Certainly not There are other factors that influence Saika equipment such as making things as light weight as possible, including the matchlocks. This aids mobility on the battlefield as well as foot transportation of equipment over long distances. The gunners from Kishuu we have discovered did not make use of large line formations but rather focused on individual shooters aided by assistants. My point of this tangent is you have to get as specific as you can with studying all of this, and look at it first and foremost as military equipment. Things have become too artsy in this community I feel and it leads people in a very bad direction on a whole lot of levels. As my teacher says "Armor is armor"; think of its function.

That means a lot coming from you Jan That encouragement means the world to me. In this early stage of my career I'm investing most of my time in study and research before I put hammer to steel. I realized whatever I produce will influence the public's perception of this time; so, I gotta get it right from the get go is my thinking. The amount of different things I have to study is a bit overwhelming at times; with our recreation of Tsuda-ryu for example, it's sprawled out into a huge web of topics. It's not enough to for our team to just look at guns and scrolls. We're having to study so many things from esoteric buddhism to armor in different regions to trade lanes and political ties. I'm glad I chose to do armor alongside the matchlocks as they are so inherently entwined in so many regards; it's not merely defense against firearms, but armor being adapted to fit gunners, and even shared production methods. I'm hoping my generation will be able to make our own contributions and build off the work of preceding generations; and when it's our turn, be able to pass it on to the next.

Looks a little bit Showa to my eye....

I had been wondering about asa odoshi! I had heard rumors of it, but when I asked around I couldn't seem to find much. That's something I'd be very interested in reproducing...

You've brought up the most important point of all. I will try not to let this turn into a long rant. There is a very strong tendency since the post-war era of robbing Japan of its agency. Foreign powers have been quite desperate to reshape Japan into a globalized society. This even goes into Japanese history, and how it is subtly rewritten over time. Many in the matchlock community I have made contact with have been quite surprised about my discoveries with the Japanese matchlock, and how it is truly something uniquely Japanese. Nowadays it is seen as something foreign, and usually used in the context of pushing a narrative of a very open and globalized Japan in the 16th century. However this was never truly the case. When one starts reproducing a matchlock and studying earlier examples, it becomes glaringly obvious that there is not a thing Western about them by a few decades after their introduction. The same goes for armor. The idea that Tousei-gusoku is inspired by imported European armor has little to no technical basis and rather lives in the realm of vaguery and conjecture in my humble opinion. Sure, when we get into the early 1600's with the Hatomune-dou and the transitional flat top munai-ita, I'll concede that point. Both of these features barely caught on is the issue. And looking at the simple roadmap I posted up there, it's quite clear how the Okegawa-dou evolved on its own in Japan. When I write up the Zunari thread I think it will become even more clear. A final nail in the "western influence" coffin I think is the relative rareness and obscurity of Western armor at this time, with only a couple of examples even being noted, albeit anecdotally. Import in any appreciable numbers does not seem to happen until the 1590's and early 1600's. If it were all inspired by Western armor, then how would kacchushi across the country develop their own concepts and lines of evolution using plates while never having even seen an example of Western armor? The plate construction and methodology itself is so wildly different that there is almost no technological commonality. At the end of the day, this field of study is about Japan. I think people need to stop seeking ownership over Japanese culture (or self inserting for the sake of feeling represented) and instead learn to appreciate it as what it is.

I don't think this is the right way to perceive Yukinoshita/Sendai-dou. It comes down to thickness of the body plates and the arrangement of the kusazuri. The fact that the Date were able to outfit their entire fighting force in them should speak volumes. Quite obviously, the quality of the lower grades would not be the same as that worn by the higher ranks or specialists such as cavalry. Even an Eastern army at this time would mostly be made up of infantry. It would be farfetched to consider it a cavalry only armor I think.

Ok I think I found that illustrator

If you don't mind my asking, when was Yoshihisa active? And could you post some photos?

Let me go reverse image search that one. There are a few guys that illustrate this period as it really was. What's funny is my little group on our own came to the exact same conclusions as some others. Needless to say we were overjoyed when we started making contact with some of them. Most are younger, in our age group, so I do have some hope for the next couple of generations when it comes to studying this era.

The Anti-Climactic Conclusion So, when did the modern Okegawa-dou really show up? Who was the brilliant man that put the pieces all together? Truth be told, my group and I have no idea. We have been able to trace each element of it, and we know more or less when they show up to within the span of a few years in most cases. We can trace it all geographically as well with a high degree of certainty. The issue is we can't truly pinpoint the exact moment this form took shape. We all came to the conclusion that there was likely an early form of it present at Sekigahara amongst some of the highest ranking staff, but beyond that we're not quite sure. The deeper we dug into the origins of various famous suits of armor, the more we found they defied any hard evidence or logical evolution of Tousei-gusoku. We were able to find clear points where typologies had been distorted in order to justify descriptions of said suits of armor with rather dubious provenances. Taking a step back, and approaching it all logically, we have gone ahead with things we can see fit an obvious, logical typology, and pay little attention to stories told about things that would have required a time machine. All of the building blocks were there by the 1590's for the Okegawa-nimai-dou to show up; it's merely a matter of when and where it occurred. With the amount of dubious armor out there muddling things, especially when it comes to the era from 1590-1615, it's a somewhat hopeless endeavor. We can confidently say it shows up sometime in that time frame and most likely in the late 1590's however. Now, does this mean ashigaru were running around in this armor in the form most often imagined? Of course not. But we know for a fact that in the following decades they clearly were. Zohyo Monogatari illustrates it quite thoroughly, and this was produced around the time of the Shimabara Rebellion. It's possible some armies had implemented it by the time of the Siege of Osaka as well! But as of this time we are not quite sure. Interestingly you are hard pressed to even find an illustration of an Okegawa-nimai-dou until after that campaign. A couple of our members searched through all of the contemporary artwork and could not find a single portrayal of one until after 1615. I hope one day the public will begin to envision this era as it truly was, rather than the sleek post-modern image that has taken over. Then again, it's possible the reality is just a bit too unglamarous for most... In the next write up I do, if people enjoyed this one, I will talk about the evolution of the zunari kabuto. The Hineno-zunari goes hand in hand with the Okegawa-dou, as it follows along the same exact lines of development and woefully incorrect pop culture portrayal. Until then, I hope this generates some conversation and steers people in the right direction. As a bonus, I'd like to include this link to Taro Saemon's blog. There is some great further reading in here for anyone interested in the topic! https://ameblo.jp/saemon-taro/entry-12431101080.html