Babu

What I meant was file marks this bad and ugly, Ford. I'm well aware of Yasuri mei. This is not intentional in this case. So it may be an adjustment or it may be an additional slot and we will never know. kogai atari on the koiguchi is just as bad and has almost been filed through. I still proffer its an added slot as I cannot see why the removal of so much copper was necessary for adjustment of an on suite manufactured set. It should fit "out of the box " with nominal adjustment.

Here you go. Posted before I saw Ford's response. So I think that slot B may be original to the fuchi and koiguchi. The work is not overly filed and it looks most likely original. However slot A is clearly not the same. Its out of alignment, badly rendered and rough as old boots. The logic behind it being usage wear and tear is flawed because the softer laquer and wood would also exhibit thus anomoly. So based on this observation I cannot help but think that the slot A is not original and that it's been added in the field or at home. It's an old repair but none the less it just doesn't look right. I'm open to any alternative explanation if it's credible.

The fittings are nice from what I can see certainly above average made. I have a very similar set myself they could almost be a pair. Shame the menuki are gone. I like this sword Mike I think it's a restoration project but it's a pleasing shape has reasonably good hi and the fuchi-kashira are of decent quality. The mounts appear civilian.

Honestly please hand this back to the op Mike now enough is enough. I'm tired of trying to help you understand how I got to my conclusions. I think Mike has more questions to ask and we may be in the way of those questions. All the best Adam

God forbid John. No, I do not want that "honour". I know where I stand on here it's been drummed into me enough. My way or the highway. I just made an observation based on my experience . Ford is supremely knowledgeable I wasn't suggesting otherwise and I'd love his take on this but he's an artist not an engineer that's what I was alluding to . What might he know about say Creep, fatigue or stress on materials? For all I know he understands it all. Contact him show him the close ups recently added by Mike and let's roll the dice but remember ford will not always be right as will I not.

Gentlemen you don't seem to be able to see what is clearly evident and I wonder if this is due to who has raised the matter more than the matter itself. It's not wear and the suggestion of work hardening would assume the kogai and kozuka would have a back surface texture of a course file. That's just not the case as you can see it's crosshatch scored only . The OP has looked at it under an eyeglass and he also sees its rough filing not coherent with the rest of the work and is not wear as the normal wear has worn down the raised filing. It's also really clear from the image the slot is very poorly formed and does not show an expert level of skill in formation as its not lined up to the wooden slot correctly. You can lead a horse to water gentleman..... Please let's just agree to disagree on this matter and move on for the benefit of the original post and leave this parked I've no time to bang my head against a wall when people are clearly so blind to the obvious.

To be honest Ford is an artisan and will not be able to offer any more insight than I can. I've looked closely at both slots and I do think that the cleaner filed slot looks more original. The other in my mind was added later and not very skillfully. Almost like a field adjustment or alteration. I don't think those fittings were made for a kozuka AND kogai just a kozuka at most and as you say maybe not even that but I do think that one side looks OK. The kogai if anything was added later. The “Aikuchi" is a dagger mounted without a tsuba. What the tsuba does is prevent the hand from sliding onto the blade In a thrust attack. So to mount a yoroi doshi needing serious strength to penetrate armour in a thrust attack into fittings without a tsuba is extremely unuseful and opens the wielder to huge risk of injury and death. Furthermore the elimination of a tsuba meant this type of sword or dagger could he hidden in the folds of clothing and whipped out without the tsuba catching in those folds. So why mount a yoroi doshi as an Aikuchi in the first place. It's not a practical weapon on the battlefield. So it's likely the mounts have been adapted to suit someone's taste or needs. I doubt we will ever know, but that saya based on the evidence did not go with that tanto as its got two slots and that fuchi was not made for a kogai and kozuka and had only one slot as manufactured . Make sense? It's still a beautiful set I'd be happy to own and I thank you for sharing it.

So your thinking that the blade going in and out has caused this type of wear? Does this seem credible to you? Listen I've shown you both sides of the tanto Koshirae and there is very clear evidence that the other side is just not well done or even correctly done. That's all I can do really. You make your own mind up. Just look at how badly the groove is cut. It's just not wear n tear, it's poorly done. It's not that I care. Like I said I just made an observation. Its everyone else after that observation that's blown this out of proportion to the point of being almost insulting. Making out I'm disrespecting the tanto or talking utter bullocks which I wasn't doing at all, then being accused of making covert offers to the OP which I'm sure he will confirm as utter fantasy. You cannot talk on this forum anymore without someone jumping to the wrong conclusion then everyone else joining in like a lynch mob with noose at the ready. I'm out of the conversation now so carry on as if I never mentioned it which I would not have had I known you were all going to be so off about it.

In what respect Alex?

Nope, just quantifying my logic. It's not 11th Gen so check out 10th gen I'm done enjoy your thread.

Super Nice tanto and mounts although It might be fair to add that the mei looks Gimei so doesn't appear to be by the Smith it's claiming to be. The kozuka slot in the Fuchi on one side may have been added at a later time. You can see the rough file marks and the way it's not quite in line with the tool slot edges,it's just not wide enough. It's also filed almost through the copper Fuchi. This would not happen on copper on copper wear as both materials are of equal strength and hardness. It's no big deal but any shinsa will note that and determine the set is not a set and fail to paper it. The files are so deep there's no coming back from it without major work and cost and of course everyone on here will disagree with my theory. In fairness it could be that the slot was too small and needed opening up but if this were the case then why does the ”new" work not line up with the slots thickness as the other side does? In my humble opinion this Fuchi has been adapted crudely and the saya is a later addition albeit historic and the kojiri was totally different ergo it's not on the end anymore of what is clearly a well respected tanto set. This is all speculation but based on sound engineering principles and the evidence as seen. Thank you for sharing it with us Michael.

Your absolutely right. Picture 1 slot finishing was created by the artisan. Picture 2 slot finishing was also created by the artisan. I stand corrected. Please ignore my previous statement and absolute ignorance. Picture 1 is indeed just wear and tear.

All I noticed was that something wasn't quite right. And the images posted by the OP agree with me. It was just an observation nothing more until everyone else blew it out of proportion. I have not made any offer, this might be the way others work but it's not the way I do. I was right on my assumptions yet not one of you can admit to being wrong. That shows a certain lack of strength of character does it not?

And as a professional engineer for a similar length of time I'm astonished that you do not ken. Perhaps you didn't see the latest images the OP posted.

I honestly do not know what to say to you Stephen so I'll just shut up. You make all the far fetched assumptions you like.

It appears that the one side is original and the other is a cruder added slot that doesn't even quite fit the saya groove. I do not doubt that some will say it's wear but then you have to ask why the softer wood of the slot doesn't show the same wear if that is the case. It's a later addition without doubt. It's not even well done and if that slot is not right, then that saya is not either as the original would only have one slot.

Thank you Micheal Is the top image the kozuka knife or the kogai?

No they appear very different Micheal but I'll let others comment as it will just cause conflict. I had a tanto by this Smith in 2008.

Umetada school work

Maybe I am offbase but it's a sound theory based on engineering principles. That is not umetada work it is not flamboyant enough and shows little or no strength of design. Who told you it was umetada? Also You are still not explaining why the two grooves are so rough of finish..it's not wear n tear.The kogai doesn't touch the Fuchi (see image) I will once more draw attention to the detail. I've also asked the OP to take close ups of both sides with saya closed but with the kozuka and kogai removed. This will either confirm my theory or confound it. That's if Micheal agrees to do this. After all it's just a theory at this stage. For the record it's a lovely tanto I'd be happy to own. However I would not pay $2500-3000 for it that seems very steep for a yoroi doshi so I would be outbid. I'm more likely to say $1800-$2000 is my top end.

As you can see the kogai doesn't even make contact with the Fuchi. How then can it be wear and tear and all over that area? No way is it wear and tear so what is it?

Who's rating it down? I can see clear file marks that appear to support the fact that the Fuchi and koiguchi have been filed down in what we can only assume is an attempt to fit both kogai and kozuka. It's both sides and unless you're all in agreement that the artisan intended to leave this easily worked material rough in those areas then why am I all of a sudden Mr nasty?? There is no way that artisan intended for that set to have a kozuka and kogai. If he did both the grooves would be lovely and smooth and the pattern would not be cut short. I don't know what has gone down but the evidence is there for those with eyes to see. It's still a lovely set but why do both the kogai and kozuka slots look so rough and unfinished? Answer that please. I thought this forum a place of respectful study and learning. Not everyone jumping on another person's opinion all the time. Explain the rough finish and I'll listen. The material is copper. Plain ol unpatinated copper. Soft and easy to work by hand.

Even when you can clearly see it you still dig your heels in don't you. So in your opinion the artisan deliberately left those kogai and kozuka notches rough finished like that because you think that old copper has been patinated? It's just old copper. If you look you can just see where some of the decoration remains but the rest has been lost to the filing on one side.

Look at the filing to add the kogai and kozuka on the fittings gentlemen. Rough and untidy and this just would not be. The Fuchi and koiguchi have both been roughly filed to accommodate the add ons. Therefore they must have been added after the fittings were made. It's likely the kogai and kozuka were a part of a very matched sword but not that tanto. File marks should never be present in a finished item . And before you mention it, the kogai doesn't even reach the Fuchi as shown in the images so it's not wear.(appreciate copper on copper doesn't wear that way)

Beautiful. The kogai and kozuka are much later additions to the Koshirae so the saya must also be a later addition . Regards Adam