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Mishina School, Etchu No Kami Masatoshi


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#1 AndyMcK

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 08:45 PM

Hello folks!

Have a few questions on a blade that passed the last NBTHK hozon shinsa. Partly inlight of Joe's recent sale (he is trying to make me go bankrupt!) I am trying to assess possibility of selling the blade to fund a purchase and upcoming trip to Japan.

So, I tried to find references on the 1st and 2nd generation Masatoshi sales, but not such luck, or poor skills on my part in finding one.
Curator in NBTHK told my Japanese contact that the mei resembles more 1st generation than second but they didn't rule which one it is so looking for 1st and 2nd generation examples. If someone has purchased one (either)recently I would really appreciate a pm on the matter.

Also if someone is collecting Mishina blades, you are most welcome to contact me. :)

After getting sufficient information the blade will most likely be found in the sale section unless someone is faster. (will honor the donation either way)

Any help is most welcomed!

Br,

Antti

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#2 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 09:09 PM

Don't look at it as bankruptcy, look at it more and investing all of your money to focus on the best period of Nihonto and the best smith's that ever did it ;-). Masamune-shmasamune. Give me a 30" katakiriba Shigemasa any day ;-).

Kidding aside, Good luck on more info Antti. This is a nice piece.
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#3 AndyMcK

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 01:57 PM

And forgot to add the measurements of the Masatoshi:

Full length: 92,8 cm
Nagasa: 71,7 cm
Nakago: 21,1 cm
Kissaki: 3,5 cm
Sori: 1,5 cm
Moto: 3,0 cm
Saki: 2,0 cm
Kasane: 0,7 / 0,5 cm

It came with a custom gunto koshirae and numbered tsuba/seppa. Has some mei on the tsuka on the wooden mouth but cannot make any heads or tails on it. Has a silver mon that points towards Totsukawa.
Also one photo pre polish added.

Antti

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#4 Darcy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 12:53 AM

Yasurime are what we'd call a checksum in the software world. 

 

When the yasurime don't match his habits from published examples (in this case appear to be kiri), you have a big red flag on the rest of the mei before even getting into studying that. 


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#5 AndyMcK

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 10:27 AM

Well they did pass it as Hozon, but still waiting to see if they attribute it to specific generation. I am not so experienced even with examples on the internet to contradict their call on it. I did find two examples (atleast the other looks clearly the same) of what seem to be with similar yasurime, courtesy of Markus helping me out earlier on the mei.

Antti

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#6 Jacques D.

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 10:41 AM

Not to say it's shoshin or gimei but nidai Masatoshi used kiri yasuri...



#7 Darcy

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 07:53 PM

I need to amend my previous comment, I went back through the Juyo and they are restricted to the first gen. There is a bit of variation in the mei so I thought I was looking at two generations. NBTHK doesn't often put a generational note on the front.

 

So going back then two things, no 2nd gen in the Juyo at all, and as mentioned no kiri yasurime. So it's not likely first generation. 

 

Fujishiro has first gen at Jo-jo and 2nd gen at Chu-jo which explains why 2nd gen is not coming into the Juyo. Fujishiro says it goes out to 4th generation but doesn't have any examples. 


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#8 AndyMcK

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 10:21 PM

Thank you Darcy, that helps to narrow down the search!

Antti

#9 AndyMcK

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 10:27 PM

This is the information the curator at NBTHK told my contact in Japan.

"No 347 MASATOSHI

It may be 2nd generation Masatoshi but they can't be sure because late 1st generation has same type of MEI.
It is very difficult to judge if it is 1st or 2nd on MASATOSHI. Usually NBTHK doesn't make judge on 1st or 2nd unless the Mei has clear and enough reason to judge generation."

Antti

#10 Darcy

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 08:34 AM

What they do in the Juyo is they give in the commentary a rundown on Masatoshi. They will start by saying he is a son or the fourth son of Seki Kanemichi and/or they talk about his brothers, then from there you can figure out that you are dealing with the Shodai. But you need to read the commentary on each and then make sure that there is nothing at the end that says something like "this one is made by the second generation."

 

The only mention so far of the 2nd generation I can see for sure is that his work is inferior to the first, on these things. 

 

But you won't get any of that detail below Juyo so your contact is right, unless you got really lucky on a paper. This is the reason to go for a sayagaki often times as Tanobe sensei would make the call. 

 

I think though that the yasurime are going to be putting this right on track. 

 

When you plug it all in: Chu-jo saku Shinto smiths are generally not making Juyo (it does happen), no break from style in the yasurime though in the Juyo works implies it's all one guy making these. If the Shodai made breaks to kiri yasurime then it stands to reason after 30 blades you can expect to see one. All of this points the most reasonable explanation at 2nd+.


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