NAGAMAKI - Possible to determine age by Sugata?

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

Is it possible to see what age a Nagamaki belongs to purely by looking at shape?

 

Which time frame were they produced?

 

I know they derived from Nodachi and might have been produced up until 1660's, but I have seen examples that claim to be in the 1800's.

 

It would be nice to boost up knowledge in this area.

 

/Martin

[leo]

Dear Martin,

the nagamaki is a rather old weapon and was to my knowlegede mainly made and used from late Heian to early Nambokuchyo period. After that most surviving nagamaki were converted into tachi/katana by just shortening the nakago.

Imho they did not derive from nodachi. As far as I know they were replaced by nodachi or o-tachi.

 

In Japanese museums I have seen several nagamaki from the Kamakura period. The shapes varied considerably. So I am not sure wether the age can be told from the sugata.

 

Regards,

[NihontoEurope]

Martin S,

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

It is nice to start the thread with a difference of opinion.

 

My opinion is only resting on what I have read from various sources from the internet.

 

Let's hope that we can gather enough information at the end of a good thread here.

 

From WikiP:

"The nagamaki is considered to be evolved from the extremely long nodachi or ōdachi".

 

Further questions regarding Nagamaki and a sum up of previous:

 

Is it possible to see what age a Nagamaki belongs to purely by looking at shape?

 

Which time frame were they produced?

 

Did the Nagamaki have its own evolution in shape?

 

Was it only certail schools that specialised in the Nagamaki format?

 

How did the Nagamaki get born? From O-Tachi / Nodachi or the other way around?

 

/Martin

[NihontoEurope]

Here are some cut-outs from the book "Japanese Polearms":

 

[attachment=0]Japanese POLEARMS.jpg[/attachment]

 

 

/Martin

[runagmc]

I remember reading somewhere that the Hojoji school is thought to have made many nagamaki and naginata. From what I have seen, most have been converted to katana.

[NihontoEurope]

Adam,

 

Thank you. Yes, most are Naoshified.

 

I have a few, but only one ubu unfortunately.

 

I will try to see if I can find anything interesting on Hojoji school.

 

/Martin

[uwe]

Hi folks,

Ian & Anthony mentioned in there book "Arms and Armor of the Samurai" (page83), that nagamaki first appeared at the middle of the Muromachi period. Maybe as a variant of the no dachi.

Uwe

[leo]

The nagamaki theme has been discussed before.

The thread I found most interesting, was this:

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4740&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=nagamaki&start=15

 

Most topics are pointed out there. I found important that the term nagamaki is basically a matter of the koshirae.

Once a slender curved polearm blade (without yokote) has a certain length, how can you tell if its a naginata or nagamaki? The Japanese usually describe such blades as naginata.

 

Which makes sense, because who wants to be the expert to judge how its koshirae which long ago had turned to dust, looked 700 years ago?

 

My personal theory is:

Nagamaki got out of fashion in Muromachi times and most blades were remounted as swords. The few surviving nagamaki koshirae were made much later, which might have led to the assumption they were an invention of the 16th century and later.

Just a theory.

 

Naginata koshirae you can find in abundance today because they were used until Meiji times. I have hardly seen one though which was older than 1700! Still nobody doubts that the naginata is a very ancient weapon!

 

Regards

[NihontoEurope]

Martin s.

 

Yes, The term Nagamaki itself is Long wrapped as in long wrapped tsuka.

 

Determening whether it is a Nagamaki or Naginata is not so hard (especially when Ubu). Unless the Nagamaki looses its state as Nagamaki when tsuka is gone.

 

I will look at the topic after work.

 

Thanks.

 

/Martin