Iron Tsuba questions, advice or opinion desired.

[edzo]

Dear members,

I have been researching two similar iron mumei tsuba that may be somewhat related.

The first one(Q68), is carved and engraved iron. The plate is a rich dark color, with a sukinokoshi mimi and the plate includes a fine nanako ground. It shows wear suggesting it an early piece. The mimi exhibits some very fine ware suggesting folded forging. I don’t see bones anywhere. The thickness at the seppa dai is 4mm and 5.5 at the mimi and the size is 6.8 x 6.5cm,

The second tsuba (Q65), Has a different color and patina, a more artistic depiction, a maru-mimi and is close to the same size and 3.5mm thick.

The designs are similar and the hitsu-ana appear original to each. I have looked at Nara, Shonai Shoami, Saotome, Nobouiye and Kaneiye among others but am still at odds. I have not seen another iron tsuba with nanako on it like Q68. Hoping that someone may have an idea of a school or period otherwise I hope you find them interesting. Thank you for your time, Ed.

[Marius]

Ed,

 

Q68 looks like a shiiremono. Q65 I would look into Choshu, but this is not quality work, either, I am afraid.

[Lorenzo]

If the first piece really is iron, I would say cast.

[Marius]

If the first piece really is iron, I would say cast.

 

I had the same feeling, I just didin't want to say this dreaded word

[edzo]

Dear Mariuszk and Lorenzo, Thanks for your assistance, I am a little supprised because the blade and mounts of Q68 look promising, the trditional blade has horimono and Q65 is on a wak signed Kosuke no Kami Kanesada, possible shinto, not to say its not gimei, which I am researching now. In any event, Thanks very much, regards, Ed

[Marius]

I am a little supprised because the blade and mounts of Q68 look promising, the trditional blade has horimono and Q65 is on a wak signed Kosuke no Kami Kanesada, possible shinto, not to say its not gimei, which I am researching now.

 

Ed,

 

good tsuba are quite rare on assembled mountings I have recently bought a Tadahiro wakizashi and the "tsuba" was cast iron, despite the koshirae being quite decent.

[edzo]

Makes sence, I've noticed that in some cases the tsuba nakago-ana does not seem to be a fit to the tang or have sekigane, just married to it. Thanks again Ed

[Lorenzo]

Ed,

 

3 points:

 

1) top right of the second picture, look at the mimi and there is a sort of hole there.

 

2) sekigane looks integral with the tsuba and not made in soft metal as they should be

 

3) "nanako" style punch marks in iron are unusual.

[edzo]

Dear Lorenzo, thank you for participating. I'm just unclear with what you mean with the hole near the mimi, what might that represent? I'm fine with 2 & 3. Ed

[Lorenzo]

Ed, remember my opinions are, as I wrote, just my opinions

Said that; I believe that "bubble" is a defect of the casting process.

[Soshin]

Ed,

 

3 points:

 

1) top right of the second picture, look at the mimi and there is a sort of hole there.

 

2) sekigane looks integral with the tsuba and not made in soft metal as they should be

 

3) "nanako" style punch marks in iron are unusual.

 

Hi Ed,

 

I would agree with Larenzo and others points the tsuba looks like a cast iron copy of a original Edo Period kinko tsuba. Both tsuba will be considered as shirimono. There are iron nanako but it doesn't look like this. I have a good example in my collection. Let me know if a good example of real iron nanako would be helpful.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[edzo]

Dear David and Lorenzo, I get it now with the defect near the mimi and casting process, I was thrown not only by my inexperience but influenced by the mimi lookig as though it had been hammered back. I have another tuba from a wak koshirae that is a simple plate but also includes a shakudo fukurin that is signed but I cannot make it out. My thinking is someone invested money having mounted on the plate. Would you mind my posting it here for you to view it? Ed

[Soshin]

Dear David and Lorenzo, I get it now with the defect near the mimi and casting process, I was thrown not only by my inexperience but influenced by the mimi lookig as though it had been hammered back. I have another tuba from a wak koshirae that is a simple plate but also includes a shakudo fukurin that is signed but I cannot make it out. My thinking is someone invested money having mounted on the plate. Would you mind my posting it here for you to view it? Ed

 

Hi Ed,

 

I think you need to look at more quality tsuba. A hammered back mimi does not look like that. The only thing I do see is multiple casting defects. To be honest I would recycle those cast tsuba if they were ever mounted on a real Nihonto I owned. They look bad and they have little or no value. This is just my opinion. Go ahead and post the other tsuba you were talking about above.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

I would have to concur with Lorenzo and David, in particular David's advice.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Eric Leonard]

Ed, remember my opinions are, as I wrote, just my opinions

Said that; I believe that "bubble" is a defect of the casting process.

 

Depending on how the smith made his Tsuba from iron, 'bubbles' can exist in welded bloom iron.

[Lorenzo]

Of course. And the artist would have seen it and not left the error there.

[Ford Hallam]

And an experienced eye can easily distinguish between a casting flaw and a forging flaw.

[edzo]

Dear Ford, Lorenzo, Eric, Dave & others, Thank you for prticipating and your time,

 

I have included two tsuba the first one I am concluding, due to the flaw at 2 oclock on #1 to be a cast example, and the second one to be hand forged. Am I correct in assuming the flaw is not bones? Is there anything else you might point out regarding these tsuba? The one wit the odd nakago-ana is on a nagamaki Naoshi koshirae. Keeping in mind what was said, as i remember, a smith wold not accept such a flaw, the question, for me is why would the piece be adorned with precious metals? I had the other fittings with #2 included. Ed F

 

Edit: What is odd to me is why would an artisian inves , in the case of these, gold embelishments and the extensive work effort? #1 has two different color gold applications (flower petals/leaves)? How old do you think these are?

[John A Stuart]

The F/K is a good set. I just wonder who 孔真 refers to, Norisane?? John

[edzo]

Hi John,

I came up with Hirosada, if I'm correct. Thanks for visiting, Ed F

[John A Stuart]

Yes, That is correct I believe 孔貞 Hirosada. I misread the second kanji. I love the tree form. John

[edzo]

Dear John, Happy that you enjoyed it. The fittings are on a wakazashi that I just finished translating, if I,m correct to Kotetsu. I'm going to research the blade and signature, (likely a gimei), and see what I come up with. I will likely post it on Nihonto form when I'm through. Thanks, Ed F