Help with age on this sunnobi-tanto

[Viper6924]

Hi!

 

This is a sunnobi-tanto I got awhile ago. Comes with a really nice akuchi koshirae.

 

Mumei

Nagasa: 33,7 cm

Sori: 7 mm

Hamon: chu-suguha, nioi deki

Hi: Bo-bi with soe-bi

Yasurime: Kiri

 

Wow, I hope I got those names right

 

After I made some research in my books and on the internet, I start to think it´s a bit older than I first guessed.

Perhaps late Nanbokucho or early Muromachi. I base this on the narrow suguha, the hi and the sori.

Its been cut down, at least a couple of centimeters, perhaps more.

Please look at the pics and see if You based on this can help.

Be gentle...

 

Thanks!

 

Jan

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Wow, I hope I got those names right

 

Yes excepted sunnobi tanto, your sword is a wakizashi.

[sanjuro]

Jacques.

 

your sword is a wakizashi.

 

Are you sure??????

 

8 Sun 寸 5 Bu 分 (25.8 cm) for Tantō 短刀. Tantō 短刀 longer than Teisun 定寸 are called Sunnobi-tantō 寸延び短刀,

 

The nakago of this blade doesnt look old enough to be Nanbokucho. Early Edo would have been my guess, but since I am far from infallable I could be wrong on all counts.

[estcrh]

Are you sure??????

 

8 Sun 寸 5 Bu 分 (25.8 cm) for Tantō 短刀. Tantō 短刀 longer than Teisun 定寸 are called Sunnobi-tantō 寸延び短刀,

I have wondered the same thing myself, at what point exactly does a blade become a wakizashi?

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

I have been ambiguous (read confused) about this for years. To me, a wakizashi is firstly a shinogi zukuri style blade. But... and its a big but, a lot of older blades including some outsize tanto from the nanbokucho period were remounted later as wakizashi to go with katana. There are also blades of just about every style that have been remounted as wakizashi because they were a convenient length for the purpose. Its not just a blade length than defines a wakizashi, It must also be the way in which a blade is mounted, since you can mount an old Otanto with a tsuba and it becomes suddenly a wakizashi. So... any blade shorter than a katana and ostensibly longer than a tanto can be a wakizashi. Go figure!!!!

 

The subject of this thread is mounted as a tanto, thats why I asked Jacques if he was sure. If he is certain then I'm going to ask the obvious question...... on what basis? I'd like to know also.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Blades which lenght is between 30 and 60cm are wakizashi. Sunnobi tanto is a tanto with a greater lenght than average (josun 定寸 +/- 26cm)

[sanjuro]

How wonderfully stiff necked and rigid. Anything between 30cm and 60cm is a wakizashi..... I have seen quite a few blades between these lengths that are so NOT wakizashi, that I find it very hard to accept something so arbitrary as length for a definition of a wakizashi.

One wonders about blades of this length (and they were plentiful) made before wakizashi were even thought of? Once known as Koshigatana, also Odan Bira (Oda Bira??) are they also wakizashi?

This blade is so obviously a tanto blade in style and configuration that It doesn't fit the wakizashi label except on the basis of its length alone. But....... Rules is rules whether you agree with 'em or not.

[Guido]

The "rigid" definitions are rather modern, and used for papering and cataloging. I doubt that anyone got his pants (or rather Hakama) around his ankles over a Sun or so in the old days ...

[sanjuro]

Guido.

 

The mental image of someone with his hakama in a knot around his ankles is priceless :lol:

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Koshigatana is more related to a mounting than the blade itself.

 

Instructive.

 

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... of_wak.htm

[Nobody]

I think that we talked about this topic before. Actually there are several classifications according to their time and purpose. The referred paper written by Dr. T explains well about the taxonomy of nihonto.

 

Ref. http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... of_wak.htm

 

EDIT: Oh, I did not notice that Jacques already showed the same page.

[Viper6924]

I had a feeling that the length of this sunnobi-tanto/ko-waki would be the talk of the town.

 

To me it really doesn´t matter to much as long as the blade gives me some satisfaction. A funny point of information is that this sword formely belonged to a

 

old Japanese artist who collected nihonto. He had most of his collection app. And a old sticker was still attached to the blade when I got it. It said in both english and Japanese "long tanto". Thats it.

 

But the main question stands. What about the age? I´m I on the right track thinking this sunnobi-tanto/ko waki is of an older period.

 

Thanks for all Your input!

 

Jan

[runagmc]

To me it seems like the difference in a sunnobi tanto and ko-wakizashi is the shape. When a blade has little to no sori and looks like a long tanto I call it a sunnobi tanto. When it has sori and looks like a short wakizashi I call it ko-wakizashi. Mabey I'm wrong.

 

Conflicting Terminology

 

Adam

[Viper6924]

I think You are pretty right in your analys of the o-tanto/sunnobi tanto/ko waki/waki-problem.

 

I´m def. agreeing on your "Conflicting Terminology"

 

But again. This it what makes the study of nihonto so fun. Perhaps we can agree to not agree?

 

Start to sound like an old grumpy man, but how about the age?

 

I also think nanbokocho is a bit to old for this blade. Perhaps not impossible, but a bit of a stretch. But an early to mid muromachi, can work based on the tang that have been shortend and the overall shape. It´s a bit hard to show in the picture, but the tang has that nice old patina that you look for in an older blade.

If later period, please let me know why. I´m in this game to learn.

 

Looking forward to all Your answers.

 

/Jan

[Guido]

This it what makes the study of nihonto so fun.

No, that's what gives us totally unnecessary headaches . I don't get this obsession with the "correct" terminology that pops up on this forum every so often. Is it burgundy or ox-blood red? Who gives a flying [self-censored]?

[Viper6924]

You go Guido

 

I have a lot of books from different museums in the world. And if You check their collection of Japanese swords, it´s a complete

jungle of 32,5 cm tantos, 34,5 cm sunnobi-tantos, 33,6cm ko-wakis and so on. And don´t even get me started regarding the small museums in Japan. Those displays can be really funny.

 

Another question: Is a tanto (within the 30 cm border) more valuble than a 33 cm waki?. I have this feeling sometimes when You look at diff sites with Japanese swords for sale.

 

And by the way. How old is my sunnobi-tanto...sorry wakizashi

 

/Jan

[cabowen]

funny.

 

Another question: Is a tanto (within the 30 cm border) more valuble than a 33 cm waki?. I have this feeling sometimes when You look at diff sites with Japanese swords for sale.

 

/Jan

 

If it is any help, as I recall, Tokuno's valuation system as described in his Toko Taiken rates the general value of tanto higher than wakizashi. Don't quote me though-perhaps someone with the book handy can verify or debunk that.....

[sanjuro]

Jan.

 

In answer to your question, an answer you have requested a couple of times while the rest of us babble on..... :D And an answer I think you deserve even if only because you have been so patient.

 

but the tang has that nice old patina that you look for in an older blade.

 

Yes it has patina, but not the patina of a sword some 500 yrs old. Although patina does vary from sword to sword, this particular specimen looks from the patina to be no older than early edo to me. I have swords from the Sengoku Jidai and the patina is darker deeper, more pitted and more aged looking than this one. I also have more recent swords whose patina more closely resembles this. Based only on what I have to hand and the swords I have owned of various ages, I cant see this blade being older than late Momoyama/Early Edo, and even then, the nakago is extremely 'crisp'.

 

Now the rest of the board can pull my hypothesis to pieces........

[Viper6924]

Thanks for Your input Chris... if you are correct. But have a strong feeling that You are.

 

And if you want to throw Your 5 cents into how old my tanto/waki might be, it would be great to :D

 

/Jan

[Viper6924]

Bless You, Keith!

 

I agree that the tang looks crisp for a 500 year old blade. I´m just thinking that this tanto/wakizachi been cut down. Probably during the late Momoyama/Early Edo. And if this section from around this period looks like this, it might be an older blade from the beginning. The top section of the tang is smooth because it use to be the cutting section. The buttom part is a bit more rough. But then of course you must take the shape, hamon and other things into consideration. This is well above my knowledge.

I´m sure You are right, I just got that feeling when I got the sword in my hand.

 

Thanks again!

 

Jan

[cabowen]

From the photos it is not clear to me that the blade has been shortened. I think it more likely that the horimono are original and that the nakago is ubu. Based on the patina and crispness of the edges, including those around the mekugi-ana, I would think it is not all that old. This shape was popular in Keicho Shinto....that would be my guess, based solely on the limited info available from the photos....

[Viper6924]

Thanks again Chris!

 

Well, I got two good reasons for putting this question on ice. And an ubu tang is always better than a cut one.

 

A sunnobi-tanto :lol: with an ubu tang.

 

Good enough!

 

THANKS!

 

Jan

[sanjuro]

OK, the rest of my hypothesis. Mostly because Chris was the most likely guy to shoot me down and he hasn't. The sugata of this tanto is similar to a 15th century piece that I own so I am leaning heavily on that as a comparison. The hamon, boshi, and hada of this blade say shinto to me. The steel is bright, light coloured and flashy (not a derogatory term, but one that is used to describe shinto steel in comparison to koto steel), whereas a koto blade would be grayer and softer in appearance with a generally more pronounced hada. Plus as Chris has pointed out, the appearance is not a tired but rather a sharper, clean, newer look.

[Viper6924]

Thanks Keith!

 

It´s good the hear that the sugata in Your opinion resemble an old style. That was the first thing I noticed when a got the blade in my hand.

 

I thought the narrow suguha hamon also was a sign of an older design. But I stand corrected.

 

Great input Keith. I guess this is the only way to learn to read old Japanese swords. Trial and error.

 

I will compare the metal in this blade with some old koto-blades I have.

 

/Jan

[sanjuro]

Heres the tanto I was comparing yours with:

 

See how soft the hada looks, and the grayish colour of the steel? The nakago compared to yours is more antique looking also.

[Viper6924]

Clear as a newly polished tanto

 

It´s big difference between to two blades. Except perhaps the sugata.

 

It´s so much more easy when you have something to compare it to.

 

Well, this turned out to be an good thread for a rookie like myself.

 

First the sunnobi-tanto versus the wakizachi and then some good points about koto-shinto features.

 

Great!

 

Want to thank everybody who took time to help me.

 

And for all to know...

 

I still think it´s more tanto than wakizachi

 

 

Jan

[sanjuro]

For what its worth, so do I.