truelotus Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Hi all back to this beloved forum :D recently, a friend of mine come with and offer for "short samurai sword from WW2 era" ... my first thought was it must be a fake but nonetheless I asked him to send couple of picture for identification and what come along next puzzled me ... this is the first picture I got you can see that it is in proper gunto mounting, but SHORT ... no menuki seen, and the scabbard seems not original gunto (or shortened one) more pictures followed, and I got more and more puzzled ... check out the fittings below, I think it is original dimension (I asked him to take pictures with scale, so we may know the length) tsuba with chuha still intact tsuba (typical shin gunto I think) this is the end of scabbard, of which I believe we should see an ishizuki (scabbard tip), but it ended up abruptly ... yet we can still see semegane in shin gunto style this is the kabutogane, of which seemed originally comes from ishizuki (scabbard cap) ... and forced into being a kabutogane :D haikan is correct double flowering cherry as per shin gunto mounting the fittings ... no menuki, so I assume perhaps someone once opened and re-wrapped the tsuka (and he did a poor job) habaki and part of the blade ... honestly, the blade looked dead to me ... dunno whether it can be restored view of the blade I think sugata is good, typical of wakizashi -and somehow mounted into gunto mount last one ... nakago seems in proper shape ... and there's MEI ... this is why I brought this up to this forum - as I think this is an authentic mei with aged rust so ... what do you think ?? is it a real deal ?? or a fake ?? just as information, this one offered to me with USD 1,000 price tag note that I do not wish to buy this sword, I just think that this is interesting and uncommon object, and the only reference I got is from http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_048.htm which mentioned it as crew gunto ... but to see such interesting object in Indonesia is such a thrill, I found a gendaito, mantetsuto and now crew gunto ?? any comment is very much appreciated :D thank you & regards Donny Quote
Mark Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 sword is "put together", the fitting on the end of the handle belongs on the end of a scabbard. hard to say if it was done recently or in 1946 but i would think it is recent. the blade is antique Quote
truelotus Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Posted August 10, 2011 Hi Mark I also noticed that the ishizuki is indeed forced into being a kabutogane here in Indonesia, we cannot easily reproduce fittings like that, so most likely this sword was found in poor condition, without kabutogane, and tsuka ito, and then the owner tried some kind of plastic surgery to make the sword intact, by adding up his own shoelace as ito and plug the ishizuki into the end of tsuka ... and by doing so, he ruined the saya enough talking about the fittings ... so ... do you think the blade is authentic ? is it restorable ?? Quote
truelotus Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Posted August 12, 2011 so ... is there someone who can help identifying this sword ?? Quote
sanjuro Posted August 12, 2011 Report Posted August 12, 2011 Hi Donny Before we go off on a tangent trying to identify this blade, can we have a pic of the ha machi mune machi area please? From the photo we have, that area looks quite strange. Quote
truelotus Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Posted August 12, 2011 Hi Donny Before we go off on a tangent trying to identify this blade, can we have a pic of the ha machi mune machi area please? From the photo we have, that area looks quite strange. Hi Keith will ask the owner for the pic asap :D Quote
truelotus Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Posted August 15, 2011 Hi KEith as requested, pic from hamachi - munemachi area and could someone help me with the mei translation ?? thanks Quote
Jean Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 You should be able to decipher it as it is the most common signature of sue Bizen Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune Sukesada Quote
drbvac Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 The nakago almost looks like it was welded on ? Quote
truelotus Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 You should be able to decipher it as it is the most common signature of sue Bizen Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune Sukesada I admit that I am being lazy at this moment :D thank you very much, Jean ... and if I'm not mistaken, Osafune Sukesada is working in Bizen around 1500 CE, on sengoku era, right ?? and if so, do you think this wakizashi is a "mass produced" blade produced during that era ?? Quote
truelotus Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 The nakago almost looks like it was welded on ? no ... I believe this is original blade, as the Indonesian has no knowledge of Japanese sword, and too many details on the blade to be called a forgery. I seriously think that this blade is going through acid treatment, as Indonesians do with their krisses (traditional daggers) ... Indonesian believe in "myths" and "magic" and many believed that their daggers, and also sword (including Japanese swords left by IJA troops on WW2), are possessing some kind of spirit within it, and thus needs to be "treated" and "maintained" ... unfortunately, the way Indonesian treated their blade is using mixture of tamarind and lemon, while the blade is soaked and washed in coconut water first, then they add arsenic powder ... in time, this will transform the blade into stone-like, and this what I see in the wakizashi above. and sadly this practice is a disaster for a Japanese sword ... as you see the blade is "dead" already ... considering the niku is pretty thin, I am in serious doubt that this blade is restorable, but still it is an interesting piece of Japan history which stranded in Indonesia :D Quote
Jean Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 Long long time ago, it could have been something nice but we'll never know Quote
truelotus Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Posted August 18, 2011 Long long time ago, it could have been something nice but we'll never know well ... I tried to make and offer, in light that this sword will help me learn about traditional polishing method ... but I doubt that the seller will consider my offer of USD 125 :D Quote
Jean Posted August 18, 2011 Report Posted August 18, 2011 Nevertheless, it is too much money for it Quote
truelotus Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Posted August 22, 2011 can't agree more, Jean ... that's why I just made "curious bargain" ... if it goes, then it goes :D Quote
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