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Flaws and faults


paulb

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Over the years we have often debated and discussed different faults and flaws in blades. Two recent posts about swords for sale have raised a number of questions again and I wondered if it was worth revisiting this subject to gain peoples views/understanding about them

I would like to consider the following:

1. What is a fatal flaw

2. What is a fault? when is it acceptable? and at what point does it convert in to a fatal flaw?

 

To start discussion I would offer the following opinions:

1. A fatal flaw is one that threatens the integrity of the blade and results in its inability to fulfil or potentially fulfil its purpose.

A fatal flaw cannot be repaired. By this definition hagire, the loss of boshi the reduction of the hamon to a point where it touches the edge of the blade might all be considered fatal. Equally if a blade is polished down to the point where large areas of core steel are visible one could argue that the blade has been fatally weakened through loss of jigane.

 

2. I would describe a fault as something which detracts from the aesthetic beauty of a blade but does not necessarilly effect it performance. This would then include, kizu, blisters etc. Another thing to consider is that some faults may be correctd or repaired (plugging holes left by openning blisters). How much such faults may be tolerated is an individual choice. In the recent posts its apparent that to some no faults are acceptable and their presence totally destroys the value of a blade to that individual. To others a total lack of faults in something proffessing to be 600+ years old creates suspicion in the opposite direction.

 

If one wants to collect perfect blades in a condition as the maker intended they should collect shinsaku-To. Anything older which has had more than 1 polish is immediately compromised. The shape, thickness and structure of the blade will have changed.

All Koto blades will have been polished many times and will therefore exhibit faults, tiredness etc to some degree. As said above the level of fault one can accept is a matter of individual taste and is influenced by other factors, rarity of the maker, the condition of the rest of the sword and of course price.

 

The bottom line is that while we should aim to include perfect examples of swords within a collection if you want to collect koto or shinto blades you have to accept that there are likely to be some faults in them. If this is unacceptable and you find you focus totally on the faults to the exclusion of the rest of blade go for something else.

I would be interested in others opinions as to what they find acceptable and unacceptable when looking at potential purchases.

regards

Paul

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I'm with you Paul.

What constitutes a fatal flaw or not isn't really a matter of opinion. It is clearly documented on many sites. As for aesthetic flaws..that is up to the individual. Some ugly flaws are not tolerated, others bow to the significance of the blade.

They also affect value greatly. If you are buying a $1500 wakizashi, some flaws can be accepted or even expected. The same blade in mint condition with not a speck of open hada would probably increase by a $1000 or more.

 

Brian

 

PS - Opinions are great on this one. But any arguing or bickering...expect to be the horse. :flog:

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interesting post, it should be nice to see some opinions and examples of flaws and fatal flaws. One thing I find is that much of the intolerance is Western, not trying to be controversial but some opinions on this matter are often adopted from the opinion of another, so potentially it becomes a group opinion and not a personal opinion. I used to dislike many flaws and hagire, the eye opener for me was seeing a Kanabo blade with hagire (ok, two strikes against it already right) but this one was removed from a shrine iirc and was polished, it had 8-12 hagire and remaining rust depressions from deep pitting. This blade was in the shrine for a reason, obviously it had seen a terrific battle, one that probably didn't create all those hagire in one strike but after many many serious strikes. So, although the blade had all those hagire it never cracked in half, I am sure that after the battle the samurai looked at that blade, prayed to it, and ordered another Kanabo blade. Hagire - fatal? not that day. Cause the blade to crack in half in battle? Opinions change after more knowledge and understanding is obtained, I don't mind hagire so much any more after seeing that.

 

I have the blade pictured below, came from a collection in Japan after the collector passed away many years ago. After his death the blade was stored in a place where water dripped down the shirasaya and collected in the saya, anyway the owner let it go cheap so I bought it knowing the "issues". The issues were rust, gimei, one hagire and some severe blistering. But, prior to the water damage the owner had it completely restored, new silver habaki, professional polish (gimei left as it was) and new shirasaya, to this collector the blade was not junk, it was worthy of an expensive restoration. The issues were not forging related, they were caused by a major trauma, this blade was bent probably to about 45 degrees, this caused the hagire and the massive blistering/delamination. I love this blade, it has a story behind it and the forging is very beautiful and I'll polish it soon.

 

I also think there are differences between flaws that occur from forging and those that occur from use.

 

For the purists this blade no matter how beautiful is junk to them, that is ok by me.

 

Here are the pics:

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Generally speaking, the tolerance for flaws is usually relative to the age of the blade and the type of flaw. Some flaws, those that have a detrimental effect on function, are bad no matter when the blade was made. Others, mostly cosmetic, can be ignored on older blades but less so on newer blades. Of course nearly any flaw will cause a decrease in market price.

 

Personally, since I collect mainly Meiji, Taisho, and early Showa Tokyo work, I will tolerate extremely little as far as flaws are concerned. There are usually enough works still surviving by smiths of this period that eventually one can find a flawless example.

 

I think we will find that tolerance of flaws is tied to our sword "value system"- as I asked before, are they art or artifacts? People who value the history and view swords as artifacts tend to have a higher tolerance for flaws, some even value them as "part of the sword's history". Others, who collect swords as art, will have less tolerance for flaws.

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Great topic, Paul!

 

What about the following cases:

 

1) A hagiri "repaired" by suriage, so that the location of the hagiri has been moved from above to below the hamachi, i.e. the blade now has a nakago-giri :glee:. [i would accept this at least if the hagiri is below the new mekugi-ana.]

 

2) A blade with a sharp bend but no traces of hagiri/shinae. [i would not buy this kind of a blade.]

 

3) A blade with partial kakedashi where 50 % (or 90%) of the width of the habuchi has been lost. [i would personally tolerate maybe 20% but no more.]

 

Recently blades with hagiri have been sold by highly respected dealers, the existence of the fault clearly indicated. These blades seem to fetch reasonably high prices. [i wouldn't buy them, nor would I blame those who do, since hagiri is in my opinion a smaller fault than poor workmanship.]

 

 

BR, Veli

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I am in the midst here of people who know much more about this subject than I do. I am however, probably fairly typical of a mid level collector, and for what that is worth, I risk this opinion.

 

With this topic comes a two level consideration. The objective, that views a blade for what it is now and its condition sometimes relative to its age, as it appears. The subjective, that views a blade for what it once may have been and what it once may have seen, and the fact that it has survived to this day. I fall somewhere between the two.

I will accept faults that are use related. Like Louis in his post, the sword he describes I could hardly judge as junk. It served its purpose and served its owner without failing even under the most strenuous use. Such a sword should be honoured and treasured. Generally, and dependant upon the sword, I will also accept some faults that are forging related in a koto blade. I will not accept faults that are forging related in a shinto blade, nor will I accept under any circumstances a shinto sword that has a fatal flaw.

 

There is however, also another level that collectors respond to. I am sure that most collectors will identify with this, even though one or two may pooh hoo it as emotional nonsense. Be that as it may. Many of us have acquired a sword possibly even against our otherwise strict criteria, that resonated with us personally. Something that just spoke to you when you first unsheathed it or looked at it in hand. I have two such blades, purchased for no other reason than that they touched something within me, (metaphorically of course...... One of them is a tanto that was used for a seppuku). I would like to think that this hobby is not all business; that it has a heart and accepts such a connection as a reason to buy a blade. ;)

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Some might argue that a hagire is the ultimate in poor workmanship....

 

 

Chris, I agree in case the hagiri is caused by the quenching stress etc. But if it is battle-inflicted, it does not necessarily indicate the lack of skill of the smith.

 

BR, Veli

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Depending on what was cut, not all blades crack when used. I think it can be argued that for many that do, versus those that don't, it is indeed a sign of poor(er) workmanship....This is the raison d'etre of the cutting tests performed in Shinto and Shinshinto, and arguably the Rikugun Jumei Tosho program.

 

A Kotetsu blade was said to have cleaved a stone lantern and thus a reputation was born....

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Hmm, sorry not buying that argument, kind of like the test for witches in Salem, tie a rock to their feet and bind them, if they float they are a witch, if they sink they aren't.

 

All depends on what they are cutting and all circumstances are different, health of the blade, what it is cutting, temperature, etc etc etc. By your theory the only truly well forged blades would be the ones that were tested and survived.

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Hmm, sorry not buying that argument, kind of like the test for witches in Salem, tie a rock to their feet and bind them, if they float they are a witch, if they sink they aren't.

 

Not an accurate analogy. Cutting tests are not designed to fail all blades, only the poorly made ones. And not all blades fail, unlike your witches.....

 

 

depends on what they are cutting and all circumstances are different, health of the blade, what it is cutting, temperature, etc etc etc. By your theory the only truly well forged blades would be the ones that were tested and survived.

 

As I mentioned, it does indeed depend on what was cut. Surely any blade can be expected to fail if it is used to chop concrete blocks. That would be an accurate use of your witch analogy. However, when blades are tested, as they have been historically, the ones that pass have been considered to be of good workmanship while those that break or crack, are considered to be of lesser quality. We can not say that a blade with a hagire is of inferior workmanship, out of hand, without knowing what it was exposed to. This is part of the reason why Koto blades are given more latitude than newer blades. We know that there were few battles fought and little cause for damage to later blades, thus they are judged more severely.

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Is there a list of the blades that were tested and failed by hagire, just curious?

 

The amount of blades that were actually tested was very small and limited in comparison to the number of blades that have been made over the last 1000 years, yes there was a cross section if you will of blades by various smiths used for the cutting but it is limited. Also to judge a blade with hagire outside of a "testing" environment as being poor workmanship would be erroneous as we don't know what it really went through. That is my main point, but - a blade that comes out of the water trough with a hagire - that is definitely a poorly made sword, without question I suspect.

 

This could probably keep going round and round :beer:

 

Just my opinions of course.

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Is there a list of the blades that were tested and failed by hagire, just curious?

 

Yes. Check out some of the testing done by Naruse during the war.

 

The amount of blades that were actually tested was very small and limited in comparison to the number of blades that have been made over the last 1000 years, yes there was a cross section if you will of blades by various smiths used for the cutting but it is limited. Also to judge a blade with hagire outside of a "testing" environment as being poor workmanship would be erroneous as we don't know what it really went through. That is my main point, but - a blade that comes out of the water trough with a hagire - that is definitely a poorly made sword, without question I suspect.

 

Check out Masahide's writings and his reasons for a return to Koto techniques.

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To add another dimension here, something I have always found to be most unsightly and potentially fatal in a blade is the various shinae and ware encountered that run lengthwise in the steel. A long split in the jigane just above the hamon is particularly ugly IMHO. I would like to know how others feel about these flaws and faults.

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Hi Keith,

I confess I would prefer always to have swords without fault. I am weak enough to allow such faults to take all my focus to the point where it is all I see and can often not see all the good things around it. This is a great shame and something I am trying to overcome.

As has been said above and in previous posts the level and type of fault that is acceptable depends on the age and school of the sword. What is accepted in a Kamaukura blade would be unacceptable in a shin-shinto work.

Equally some schools methodology lends itself to certain types of fault appearing. The most obvius and most often talked about is the appearance of core steel in Hizen blades. But equally relevent are the type of longitudinal faults you describe which usually follow a weld line close to or within the hamon. In Yamato and Mino works where there is a prevelance of masame hada I would guess that this type of fault is much more likely to appear. Because of this I think it tends to be (at least in Japan) more tolerated than if the same linear fault appeared in Bizen work.

I have spent a lot of time with a blade that received Tokubetsu Hozon papers to Yamato Shizu. There is a weld line which has opened slightly (just to the point of visibility) within the hamon. While I would much prefer this not to be there I think it was accepted as being a likely occurance on this type of blade of this age. It would not achieve any higher level papers but is hugely enjoyable still and has many interesting features. take a look at the attached and see what you think

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Hi Keith,

 

I have spent a lot of time with a blade that received Tokubetsu Hozon papers to Yamato Shizu. There is a weld line which has opened slightly (just to the point of visibility) within the hamon. (...). It would not achieve any higher level papers but is hugely enjoyable still and has many interesting features. take a look at the attached and see what you think

 

Paul,

 

splendid example of... well, exactly of what? A tempering crack? Or just an open layer? The first would be a very serious flaw. And I presume you would see it on both sides of the blade....

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Evening all,

I have read all the post a can say that being new to this is truly being new to something. All of you have been extremely helpful in you returns and I can say I am leaning a huge amount of information. You could say I am learning through the eyes of a child. I have a great mentor in swords and have met some good people and they are teaching me well.

Since I have been looking at swords from a different perspective I guess I have learned enjoy the history behind the blades, having seen blisters, cracks, and some really wierd things involving blade care from varnish to grease, nothing suprises me.

Keeping all that in mind and getting to the point I hope I never lose the desire to look at an entire sword for what it is, a persons desire to enhance their world through sweat and hard work. Each sword I have seen, especially the older ones have a story to tell, who made them, where they came from and possibly how they made their journey. I can find very few flaws in their work when they did so much with so little to enhance our lives and I believe most of the makers never knew their work would be held in such a high place in our lives. I guess what I am saying is what some consider flaws or faults I consider character and the story of the blade. This is my opinion of course. Thanks for all the information and enthusiasm, the website is the best and keep up the good work.......

 

Steve M.

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Hi Mariusz,

Yes if it were a tempering crack I agree it would be a serious fault and I also would expect to see evidence of it on both sides. Also if it was a crack I would seriously doubt it would have achieved any papers from the NBTHK. Based on their defintions for awarding papers as listed on Danny Massey's site where it states that

. Either zaimei or mumei blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper if they are significantly tired, have kizu or repair which impairs beauty of the blade. also Blades with hagiri may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.
.

The line is only visible on one side and is a narrow opening which runs part way along a line of sunagashi. I am therefore confident that it relates to a slight opening of a weld line. At what point in its history this became visible we will never know. Again a guess from my side is that it has appeared relatively late in its life after numerous polishes.

As said previously I would much prefer this not to be there. However the fact that it is shouldnt stop us from appreciating the remaining 27 inches that are without fault and exhibit some beautiful workmanship.

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Paulb.

 

The yamato Shizu blade is indeed a fine piece and the worst comment that can be made concerning the opening would be that it is 'unfortunate'. That however takes nothing away from the workmanship since as has been observed, There has been a few polishings of this blade which have ultimately revealed it. Is it certain that this is not a use related flaw? It would seem that at that age, the blade would have seen use and may have been stressed enough to open a weld line. Such damage does not always go through to the other side, and I have seen similar on swords that have been clearly damaged in use.

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Hi Keith,

the honest answer is I dont know. If I had to bet I would suggest it is something that has appeared from polishing over the years. It is possilbe that at some point a small amount of rust got in to the fold in the steel and subsequent removal has left that hairline opening.

My simplistic view is that most stress damage is likely to form in line with the impact. I imagine the edge as being under stress logitudinally so if the edge hits someting sufficiently hard to start a crack those stresses will automatically pull away along the length. Hence hagiri are usualy perpendicular to the edge. I dont doubt there are exceptions but I dont think this is an example of one.

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Most is said...generally the older a blade the more concessions regarding to the so called flaws are made. I add some pictures, all swords have designation Juyo Token.

 

There is a story of a blade with a fukure and a couple of small kitae ware...nevertheless the sword was awarded Juyo Token based on its superior quality and the smiths high reputation.

 

1 - Go Yoshihiro

2 - Naotsugu

3 - Niji Kunitoshi

4 - Norishige

5 - Soshu Yukimitsu

 

Eric

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Eric,

I have to confess that if I had the Norishige it would break my heart every time I looked at it. What I should do is admire the way it has stood up to such punishment but in reality I would reach the point whete all I saw was the crack. As a result I would miss out on all that is beautiful around it.

Thnaks for posting these they are good examples. Interestingly in this months NBTHK journal there is an oshigata of a Juyo Bijutsu Tomonari which appears to have lost most if not all of its boshi.

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Paul,

the Norishige pic is enhanced, in reality that nick is much smaller. I think it is not wise to focus on that and to overlook the quality and beauty of that sword, taking in account its age and the many hands it has passed during its existence. As I remember the Norishige was picked up at a garage sale in the USA in bad condition. It is the merit of a knowledgeable collector who has recognised the swords qualities and sent it to Japan for further repair.

It is the same with your Yamato Shizu, that „weld line“ distracts in no way from its beauty and quality.

 

And not to forget Yamato swords in particular were worn and wielded by those warlike monks and it‘s a miracle that they have survived until today.

 

Eric

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Paul,

I think it is not wise to focus on that and to overlook the quality and beauty of that sword, taking in account its age and the many hands it has passed during its existence.

 

I have once bought a sword which has turned out to have hagire. It was beautiful, a sue-Soshu sword, I believe (or a Bungo takada, ha ha ha :-) ) The seller has offered full refund or a 50% price reduction. I went for the second option, and I have subsequently resold the sword clearly marked as one with hagire. I have thus managed to retrieve the purchasing price with no further hassle.

 

It was not a masterpiece, but a beautiful sword. I sometimes think that I should have kept it....

 

Pictures of the blade are attached. The hagire was hardly visible, it is very prominent, however, in the photographs....

 

Now, my problem is the following - many masterpieces have never been used in combat. It is possible that they would develop hagire if they were... We will never learn.

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