Opinions on Kabuto age please

[Tengu1957]

A friend of mine just acquired this and is asking for options on age . Thanks in advance 

Edited Sunday at 11:26 PM by Tengu1957
Wrong word used

[uwe]

Strange!

Do you have more pics, Gary? Especially from inside…

[Bugyotsuji]

It looks genuinely old from those photos, pre 1600.

[The Blacksmith]

It looks old,but something tells me that it isn't.  The ageing just doesn't look right to me, it looks false yo my eyes.  However, I am certainly no expert so my thoughts carry absolutely no weight whatsoever. As Uwe says,  more pictures, especially of the inside are needed.

[Lewis B]

I agree with Russ. The 'patina' looks too even and manufactured. Tehen too perfect given condition of the rest of the kabuto. I could be wrong but as a casual observer thats my sense of it. Would be good to see the interior.

[Bugyotsuji]

But why go to the trouble of creating something not quite perfect? 32 plates. Imagine the time-consuming effort involved! The very unevenness suggests something early, pre-Edo, though I am not talking about 'value' per se, just age.

 

By the same token, I too am ready to be swung by the inside details, especially the rivets. If it's a newer creation, I will be surprised, not for the first time in life!

[Tengu1957]

I hope this helps 

[Matsunoki]

?newer tehen and newer maebizashi  fitted to an older Hoshi?

The bowl looks convincingly old to my newbie eyes….the way some suji are a bit crumpled/bent and from inside the individual plates look roughly cut/forged rather than cut with snips.

I might be making a fool of myself though🙂

[The Blacksmith]

Thank you for the image of the inside. 

I like the inside much better in some ways, though it looks a bit too rough to me, and I cannot remember seeing any, either of mine, or in John Anderson's collection that were quite so rough, though I may well be wrong about that detail.

Perhaps as Colin has suggested, a newer tehen kanamono but then artificially aged ? The Koshimaki certainly does seem original I must admit.

 

I'll be very interested to hear what others think about this hachi. To me it seems very confusing I have to admit, but that is one of the things that makes items like this so interesting!

[Lewis B]

Any idea what the deep black surfaces could be? Urushi? 

[Bugyotsuji]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

Any idea what the deep black surfaces could be? Urushi? 

Probably not urushi, Lewis. I asked a Japanese friend not too long ago why some tsuba appear black and he said casually, "Oh, many people use XYZ". I made a note at the time as it was an unfamiliar word, (which I now cannot find) but it could be something similar to that. Sorry to be of little help!

[uwe]

Unfortunately, the picture leaves something to be desired, as large areas are obscured by shading.

 

Anyway, a look at the inside reveals that this hachi underwent several modifications during its lifetime. The most obvious changes can be seen around the koshimaki.

It was most likely originally intended to accommodate a kasa shikoro, but was later adapted for a hineno shikoro or something similar. The front section was also dramatically modified. Note the seemingly “overlapping” hagi-ita on the inside, as well as the difference in width of the koshimaki in that area, which creates the offset visible from the outside. This suggests that the mabisashi was added at a later stage.

Further supporting the theory that this may be an old helmet bowl are the placement and shape of the rivets, as well as the rather rough edges of the hagi-ita.

Taken together these details, i.e. the significant alterations and adaptations over the course of its use, may increase the chance that we're dealing with an old bowl...

 

There is more to say, but I'm curious to hear other opinions first!

[The Blacksmith]

@uwe

 

what would you call the shape of this hachi? The almost flat rear of the hachi gives it an almost Koseizan appearance, but not with that domed top at the Tehen. Any thoughts?

[uwe]

Yes, guess we could call the shape “kōseizan”!

[Bugyotsuji]

It looks somehow like an old-style marui (round)  hoshi kabuto-bachi. Very slight oval???

[Tengu1957]

Maybe this helps a bit.

[Bugyotsuji]

Reading a paper some time ago on various kabuto related to the Hei family of the Tōhoku region, they also discussed one that had been unearthed from under a shrine back in early Meiji, a strangely irregular, unprofessional work. It might have been a practice piece from a workshop, that was never able to fulfill its basic function of protecting a wearer.

 

The kabuto bowl under discussion above however, probably was able to protect the wearer, even if of rather rough workmanship. Not a great work of art, not a masterpiece, but the work of a rustic armorer or an apprentice perhaps which may have been through the wars before another upgrading with later mabisashi (as many were).

 

Just idle thoughts after a good night’s sleep!

[Iekatsu]

That is quite the oddity, and clearly has been modified multiple times. The Hachi itself almost gives off proto Saika vibes, but it is much cruder than we would normally expect.