Thoughts on this Tanto

[Tsubafan]

Hi,

I got this Tanto at an antiques fair couple of months ago (as a lot with another one signed Senshū-jū Masakiyo saku  => thanks again to Xiayang for helping with the translation) and did not have time to disassemble it until very recently.

it is Mumei and the blade in worse condition than the Masakiyo one.

It came with the Kozuka Kogatana pictured which is clearly not original to the set.

I believe all the fittings are in solid silver and the habaki is a thick gold leaf over copper.

Any thoughts on it would be appreciated, especially if thinking about a restoration of the blade would make sense...

 

 

Edited Monday at 08:10 AM by Tsubafan

[Tsubafan]

[Rivkin]

Nice end of Edo to Meiji mounts and actually interesting blades. Taking quite a few more pictures would help. details of work, mune etc.

[Tsubafan]

Nagasa: 23,6 cm

Moto Haba: 1,96 cm

Kasane : 0,63 cm

Edited Monday at 08:29 AM by Tsubafan

[Tsubafan]

7 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Nice end of Edo to Meiji mounts and actually interesting blades. Taking quite a few more pictures would help. details of work, mune etc.

Thanks for your feedback. Please advise on the close ups or measurements you need 

[Rivkin]

13 minutes ago, Tsubafan said:

Thanks for your feedback. Please advise on the close ups or measurements you need 

Mostly just details of work, high resolution nakage - well lit, even if its just photoshop correction, what kind of mune - it feels like it has think kasane. The ana look koto, so here is some promise here.

[Tsubafan]

[Tsubafan]

Edited the pictures with more light. hope this helps.

[Lewis B]

Certainly gives the impression of being a yoroi-doshi based on the sugata and dimensions. The shape of the nakago reminds me of Tosa Yoshimitsu. More info on the deki would be helpful. Appears ubu and mumei would not be unknown for Muromachi into early Edo work. 

[Tsubafan]

4 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Certainly gives the impression of being a yoroi-doshi based on the sugata and dimensions. The shape of the nakago reminds me of Tosa Yoshimitsu. More info on the deki would be helpful. Appears ubu and mumei would not be unknown for Muromachi into early Edo work. 

Thanks. The blade is not in good shape... I tried my best to do some close ups but being able to capture such details is quite difficult.

 

[Lewis B]

Are you using fluorescent lighting? If yes, try a LED, incandescent or halogen light source. 

[Tsubafan]

44 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Are you using fluorescent lighting? If yes, try a LED, incandescent or halogen light source. 

Absolutely spot on, i was using a photobox with a fluorescent tube. 

Maybe those will be better using a powerful LED but to be honest i have exhausted all my capabilities as a photographer 

[Lewis B]

How do the photos compare to what you see in hand? The last photo appears to show mokume swirls. If thats the case then Tosa Yoshimitsu is a strong contender.

Overall though the surface oxidation is preventing the viewer from appreciating the activity. So this might be a good candidate for polish. A Tosa Yoshimitsu attribution would date this tanto to the end of the Muromachi.

 

This is one that Ray had for sale in better condition

 

 

[Tsubafan]

2 hours ago, Lewis B said:

How do the photos compare to what you see in hand? The last photo appears to show mokume swirls. If thats the case then Tosa Yoshimitsu is a strong contender.

Overall though the surface oxidation is preventing the viewer from appreciating the activity. So this might be a good candidate for polish. A Tosa Yoshimitsu attribution would date this tanto to the end of the Muromachi.

 

This is one that Ray had for sale in better condition

 

 

Thanks for your feedback. I can clearly see Mokume pattern on Ray's example and I can almost say there is also Mokume pattern on mine but it is more difficult so see.

Would it be possible to get it polished within Europe ?

[Tsubafan]

By the way, any thoughts on the Kozuka/kogatana?

[Lewis B]

8 minutes ago, Tsubafan said:

 

Would it be possible to get it polished within Europe ?

PM sent

[Rivkin]

It could be 1470s, for example. Not the mainstream schools unfortunately. It has pronounced nioi-guchi which is not very well controlled, reasonably tight forging, but then again in couple of places it can open up with polish.

What happens with the kaeri? Its almost like there is none on one side, which torpedoes a lot of attributions. So boshi-kaeri on both sides would be of interest.

[Jacques]

11 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Certainly gives the impression of being a yoroi-doshi based on the sugata and dimensions. The shape of the nakago reminds me of Tosa Yoshimitsu. More info on the deki would be helpful. Appears ubu and mumei would not be unknown for Muromachi into early Edo work. 

Here a true yoroi-doshi, kasane = 1cm

Edited Monday at 09:24 PM by Jacques

[Lewis B]

19 minutes ago, Jacques said:

Here a true yoroi-doshi, kasane = 1cm

Not sure where you see a yoroi-doshi has to be >10mm. A quick search shows short swords that have a thick kasane ~8.5+mm from the Sengoku period that are clearly designed for armour piercing with narrow motohaba, extended hardening along the mune, straight or slight uchizori shape etc. Its the combination of these different features (not just thickness) that are also important for this function.

 

https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/r6/004/02_katsumitsu.php

 

https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/sword/22/07/harumitsu.htm

[Ian B3HR2UH]

If it was Tosa Yoshimitsu you would expect it to have a narrow suguha hamon and not be midare

[EricMajo]

The truth is that, considering the late 19th-century koshirae is in such good condition and has those silver details, I think it makes sense to restore the blade, especially since it is a tantō and the polishing should not be as expensive as polishing a katana blade.

Although I generally prefer to leave more “common” blades as they are and invest the money that would be spent on polishing into other pieces, in this case I think the koshirae is good enough to justify restoring the blade with a proper polish.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, it may be that you can get away with a light polish, not a full one. Consult with a polisher first to sound out the best way forwards, I reckon.

[Tsubafan]

Thanks to all of you for your feedbacks and advices.

Now comes the tricky question: should I invest in polishing this blade or should I "concentrate" my efforts on the other Tanto (Masakiyo) one ?

BTW, as per forum rules or for other members readability, should I create a dedicated thread on the Masakiyo as I did for this one? Or am I allowed to share it directly on this thread?

[Jacques]

15 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Not sure where you see a yoroi-doshi has to be >10mm. A quick search shows short swords that have a thick kasane ~8.5+mm from the Sengoku period that are clearly designed for armour piercing with narrow motohaba, extended hardening along the mune, straight or slight uchizori shape etc. Its the combination of these different features (not just thickness) that are also important for this function.

 

https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/r6/004/02_katsumitsu.php

 

https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/sword/22/07/harumitsu.htm

You still have everything to learn. Mitsu mune = not a yoroi-doshi 

[CSM101]

11 minutes ago, Jacques said:

You still have everything to learn. Mitsu mune = not a yoroi-doshi 

Dear Jacques,

 

maybe you should correct Wikipedia then: Yoroi-dōshi - Wikipedia 

 

Take a look at the mune.

[Alex A]

I thought Yoroi-doshi too.

 

Long nakago, straight and slender looking, then i saw the shape of the blade through the habaki, which also made me think the same.

 

Obviously seen some polish

 

 

[Lewis B]

18 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

If it was Tosa Yoshimitsu you would expect it to have a narrow suguha hamon and not be midare

Well there were up to 7 generations (a few in the Muromachi) in Tosa signing Yoshimitsu and not all made narrow suguha hamon. I'm not saying this particular tanto is by Tosa Yoshimitsu, just that this school, which is well known for yoroi-doshi, is an avenue worth pursuing. 

 

https://www.sho-shin.com/NAN5.htm

 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Lewis , there are a lot of smiths named Yoshimitsu . My old blue Hawley lists 38 and there are probably more .

Attached is a montage of Tosa Yoshimitsu blades from Japanese publications . None of them have a nakago shape like that on the piece you attached . Personally with this discrepancy and the atypical hamon I have my doubts that the piece you put up is by Tosa Yoshimitsu . Perhaps it is by one of the other thirty odd Yoshimitsu.

 

PS It is a nice piece Louis

[Jacques]

 

Mitsu-mune 

My mistake i would say iori-mune.

[Jacques]

3 hours ago, CSM101 said:

Dear Jacques,

 

maybe you should correct Wikipedia then: Yoroi-dōshi - Wikipedia 

 

Take a look at the mune.

Wiki .... Wiki is reliable on scientific subjects but about Nihonto it's far for being the case (have a look at references).

Edited Tuesday at 05:59 PM by Jacques