POSSIBLE BIZEN TANEGASHIMA with Sakai influence

[watsonmil]

Dear Mr. Jones & EricK,

Firstly, ... Mr. Jones .... Once you have as much rust ( corrosion ) removed from the inside of the barrel as possible, ... a coating of a light machine oil such as 3 in 1 or a good quality gun oil inside and outside the barrel once or twice a year should suffice to preserve and protect the barrel. A good cleaning with a brass brush ( inside of barrel ) and afterwards a swab with oil soaked rag twice a year will suffice. The military used to use a product called " cosmoline ", ... still available from a retailer in the USA named Brownell's. It is messy with the consistency of vasoline, ... but it would protect the inside of the barrel practically forever. It is a pain to clean out however.

 

Eric, .... I concur with Piers, ... but for a very few variations ... typically a Bizen Tanegashima. It is very nice. Give that barrel and lock some oiling, ... and the stock some lemon oil ! Regarding the " dimples ", .... I have not seen this before, and I really do not know the answer. Regarding the conversions of Matchlock to Bolt Action, ... any I have seen were converted using a Murta action of 1880. This was Japan's first indigenous service rifle and fired a black pwder cartidge of 11 mm. As Piers says a nightmare conversion, ........ and really of no benefit. Thank you for posting the photos, ... and congratulations on aquiring a very nice example of a rare Samurai weapon. ... Ron Watson

[Klop]

Gents,

 

Thank you for the info Piers, Here are some closeups of the lock parts. Not cleaned steel imho.

 

Ron, I am not familiar with lemon oil. Do I have to milk a Japanese lemon to get that ?

But seriously, usually for wood we use bee's wax or antique/furniture wax. That does "feed" and shine but I guess it doesn't penetrate as deep as an oil would. I've googled for Lemon oil but I'm drowning in the results beacuse I don't know what I'm looking for, can you recommend a brand or type?

 

Or possibly an alternative, how about teak or hardwood oil (usually sold for garden furniture)?

 

And once I've got an oil; should I only use it on the outside of the stock or also on the inside where the barrel is embedded? This area is quite dry right now, seems like a place that doesn't get much attention.

 

Best regards,

EricK.

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric K,

Most good furniture stores will carry lemon oil, ... I use a brand called " Old English ". It is funny to say but manufactered in the USA. Any quality furniture store should be able to provide you with a furniture oil which will PENETRATE ( be absorbed into ) the wood. Wax will only SEAL the wood, ... this is NOT what you want. That wood is old, dry, and in need of some oil to preserve and fill the empty pores. You'll be amazed at how the oil will disappear into the wood for awhile. YES, .... by all means the stock bed needs a good amount as well. Here I literally pour on oil, and wipe off the excess with a clean cloth. As does the wood under the lock inletting. After several treatments over a period of 2-3 months, you will see a big difference ... the life and beauty will be restored, ... and as a bonus you will be preserving the gun for the next generation of collector.

...Ron Watson

[Klop]

Dear Ron,

 

Thank you for all the info, I'll hunt down some oil and make more pictures to show the results later.

 

Best regards,

EricK.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I wonder if you could take a shot or two including the pan and lid, open and closed. Thanks!

[Bazza]

Dear Eric K,

Most good furniture stores will carry lemon oil, ... I use a brand called " Old English ". It is funny to say but manufactered in the USA. Any quality furniture store should be able to provide you with a furniture oil which will PENETRATE ( be absorbed into ) the wood. Wax will only SEAL the wood, ... this is NOT what you want. That wood is old, dry, and in need of some oil to preserve and fill the empty pores. You'll be amazed at how the oil will disappear into the wood for awhile. YES, .... by all means the stock bed needs a good amount as well. Here I literally pour on oil, and wipe off the excess with a clean cloth. As does the wood under the lock inletting. After several treatments over a period of 2-3 months, you will see a big difference ... the life and beauty will be restored, ... and as a bonus you will be preserving the gun for the next generation of collector.

...Ron Watson

Ron and all,

I would hesitate to oil the wood under the barrel where it beds. My three Kunitomo guns have clearly never been oiled under the barrel, while the stock outsides have been clear lacquered. The wood under the bbl is white and untouched. Two of mine are signed and I would never oil these for fear of the ink running. Could we have more discussion on this before recommending oiling this "under wood"???? The guns are 200 years old and have scarcely suffered any warping or cracking to the wood, so I even hesitate to oil the outside of the stocks, which are in excellent condition.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[watsonmil]

Dear Bazza,

I should have mentioned that where their is any signature on the stock bed ( usually in Ink ), ... this area MUST be avoided when applying oil. I have never found the application of oil ( lemon oil ) to be detrimemtal in any way to the wood inside or out. Barry, ... even in the best of climates, .... wood that is 200 years old will have lost much of it's normal moisture ( oils ).

It was once a living organism, .... and as with all things dead, ... decomposition begins. With wood it takes longer depending upon climate, ... but the cell structure eventually collapses. It would be difficult to see without the aid of a microscope, but never the less it is happening. My 8 monme gun had a perfectly dry, free of cracks stock bed. It still is free of cracks, and looks no different in a few days after a treatment with lemon oil. I would however never recommend applying oil where wood has a lacquer coat. The oil may well damage the lacquer. Getting back to the stock beds, ... I have guns that do have some cracking and although these had not gone thu to the outside of the stock, ... they eventually would over the next 100 years or less. The oil replacing the naturally lost oils in the wood will and has stopped the deteriorating process. I own not only several

Tanegashima, ... but have owned many fine English rifles such as a " RIGBY", ... and " Holland & Holland ". If it were not for the careful maintenace of the woods on these rifles using oils, ... the perfect wood to metal fit would soon show seperation as the wood shrinks from slow decay ( shrinkage ). A gun stock is no different from a fine piece of OAK or WALNUT furniture, ...

without being wiped down with a good quality furniture oil, ... the wood will eventually crack. It will also lose it's luster the very same as the gun that was pictured has lost it's wood luster. It looks dry and lifeless. The oil is meant to bring that back, ... and give it beauty while at the same time preserving it for the enjoyment of the future generations. I just noticed you also said the outside of your stocks have been clear lacquered, ... this I doubt to be lacquer, but rather some type of other finish such as the original stain combined with the natural oil found in human hands after countless thousands of handlings. I assure you that NONE I own or have handled to the best of my knowledge have a clear lacquer finish. A lacquer finish on the outside of your guns would have yellowed, cracked or otherwise deteriorated from sunlight alone after 200 years. If someone purposely lacquered the outside of a gun stock with a clear lacquer this was not done by the gun maker. A few stocks were black lacquered, ... but this was not common on most tanegashima but with the exception of one school, .... and of these black lacquered guns, .... unless refurbished they tend to be dull and damaged.

... Ron Watson

 

PS> I have pictured on this forum, ... at least 7 tanegashima, .... do you see even one that is not in prestine condition ? All have been oiled, ........ I rest my case.

[Bugyotsuji]

Talking of black lacquer, here is my 20 Monme on its stand in the hall.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

Now there's a TANEGASHIMA ! How about an article on that beauty some day as time permits. I am certain I am not alone in wanting to see and hear more . ... Ron Watson

[bluelake]

Piers,

 

That's a beauty.

 

 

Thomas

[Bazza]

Dear Bazza,

I should have mentioned that where their is any signature on the stock bed ( usually in Ink ), ... this area MUST be avoided when applying oil. I have never found the application of oil ( lemon oil ) to be detrimemtal in any way to the wood inside or out. Barry, ... even in the best of climates, .... wood that is 200 years old will have lost much of it's normal moisture ( oils ).

Dear Ron,

 

Thanks very much indeed for your most valuable comments. Having been around guns and swords for 45 years I have seen some savage abominations wrought on both, so when I got my 3 Tanegashima in quite good condition I did not want to do anything I did not know about that might compromise their condition and originality for future generations. I am grateful for your wisdom and advice.

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[Bugyotsuji]

Dear Piers,

Now there's a TANEGASHIMA ! How about an article on that beauty some day as time permits. I am certain I am not alone in wanting to see and hear more . ... Ron Watson

 

Thomas, thank you. Ron, yes, I think I could summarize what I have found out about this gun so far. As you say, when time permits, but it could be an interesting job doing the write-up.

 

As to the oil on wood question, this thread has now given me reason to consider maybe lightly oiling the insides of the stocks. Many old Tanegashima have splits alongside the stocks where the wood has shrunk alongside the barrel, but the metal has refused to shrink correspondingly.

[Klop]

Piers,

 

With some delay, here are the pics you asked for. I hope this angle shows what you want, but I can always make other shots. One of the great advantages of digital camera's; quick results and easily deleted :-)

 

Can you tell me (us) what you are looking for in these shots?

 

Best regards,

EricK

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks Eric for posting those. I was just curious to see how close your gun falls within the Bizen remit. This afternoon I was looking at a rack of 6 Bizen guns, and not one of them had all the attributes. Yours looks as though the original brass fittings have been plated at some point, but this plating has been largely removed by later cleaning. The pan lid and hinge-pin look to have been replaced, but it has been fired since then, and it is missing the Kemuri-gaeshi flashback protector aft of the pan. The pan is in very good condition as is the rest of it as far as I can see. The barrel is you say octagonal at the breech, all the way round? Have you had it out? Any Mei or date?

[Klop]

Hi Piers,

 

I have it on my lap right now, the barrel is octagonal from breech until the rear sight, after that the bottom continues in 3 facettes but the sides and top become round (trisemicirclegonal??).

2 mekugi-ana, one near the breech and one in the middle. No inscriptions unfortunately. The barrel and stock belong together, it's not a marriage.

 

Can you post a similar picture of this area on an original complete gun to show what I'm missing?

 

Thanks,

EricK

[Bugyotsuji]

Look at the little brass partition/wall right behind the pan to stop blowback and protect your eyes/face. You will notice a groove in yours where it is missing.

Click on 2nd from left of the 5 complex photos, and then the bottom gun pic.

http://www.seiyudo.com/GU-098089.htm

[Klop]

Piers,

 

You owe me a new keybord, i just drewled over the old one.

 

 

EricK.

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers,

 

You owe me a new keybord, i just drewled over the old one.

 

 

EricK.

 

Note: I was just looking for a random photo of a Kemuri-gaeshi somewhere on the web. The site above is new to me and I know nothing about it, Eric.