Meteoric iron in Nihon to

[The Blacksmith]

I was thinking a little earlier about swords in general, and then the thought struck me that occasionally swords were made from meteoric iron, Tutankhamun's dagger is mentioned as being made with metal from the Gods. The Vikings also a said to have done so, So I wondered, is there any instances of Japanese smiths using meteoric iron for making swords or daggers?

[Alex A]

One mentioned here, Russ. 

 

Smith having a go at one, though will be a mix by the looks of it

 

https://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ns2.html

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

There are quite a few 流星刀 ("meteor Nihonto") from Meiji to today. Most of them just come out looking like "Damascus" kitchen knives on Amazon because of their nickel content, though......

 

 

 

 

(One of the five meteor Nihonto made in Meiji by Okayoshi Kunimune at the request of Enomoto Takeaki, an important figure in the Meiji Restoration, 30% meteor)

 

 

("Meteor Sword/隕星剣" made by Fujiyasu Masahira)

 

 

(Made by Yoshihara Yoshindo with Gibeon meteorite)

 

 

(100% meteor Nihonto by Hokke Saburou Nobutsugu, no Hamon on this one)

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

 

(30% meteor Nihonto by Ando Hiroyasu)

 

 

 

(Not sure who made this but a set of meteor Nihonto)

 

 

(Meteor sword made by Hiroki Hiroyuki)

[Bugyotsuji]

Some years back Ken & Linda brought a meteorite from their home in Hawaii and gave it to the younger Ando (Hiroyasu). He made several Kozuka and longer blades and even tsuba during his experiments.

[The Blacksmith]

Thank you gents, that is very interesting, though given the popularity of blade making today, not perhaps surprising. I was thinking really of older blades, pre Shinto, Koto, perhaps going back to the beginning even? Are there any meibutsu for instance where this is noted?

 

I can well imagine all sorts of problems with working this material, which makes the use of it by ancient Egyptian craftsmen and Viking craftsmen even more remarkable, though of course the Saxons and Vikings were used to working with pattern welded material.  Daggers would be difficult enough, but swords must have been an absolute nightmare to forge from this material.

This is perhaps the one thing that we have to thank the Nazi's for, as prior to the Third Reich the art of 'Damascus' certainly in the west, was all but lost, and Japan being one of the few countries where the art of firewelding swords was kept alive, along with india too I suppose.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just ran a search on the Japanese web but nothing earlier than the Enomoto Meiji blades mentioned above came up.

[Rivkin]

Meteorite was a popular theory regarding how the early steel could have been smelted at low temperatures, but under close inspection its very far fetched.

[ROKUJURO]

Meteorite iron does not contain carbon so it is not usable as sole material for blades (except for decorative purposes). Combining it with manganese-containing carbon steel will result in a nicely contrasting pattern after etching.

But the incredible prices for meteoric iron are prohibitive. You have to be a dead Pharao to afford it....

[John C]

Space alien sword? Count me in!

 

John C.

 

[Lewis B]

13 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

But the incredible prices for meteoric iron are prohibitive. You have to be a dead Pharao to afford it....

You're not kidding. One of Bob Kramers chef knives made with meteorite-sourced material sold for $236K

 

https://tanzocutlery.com/blogs/tanzo-cutlery-blog/bob-kramers-legacy?srsltid=AfmBOor0752LqJzgZFOvxWZzLbcv8uulawrbQ5blIPEETtxOHf_k309n

 

 

 

Edited July 17 by Lewis B

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Lewis!

I am willing to make you a beautifut and equally functional kitchen-knife for half that price, even without meteorite iron. 

[Lewis B]

Here is the YT vid with the late Anthony Bourdain showcasing the forging of the blade.

 

 

[The Blacksmith]

13 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Thank you Lewis!

I am willing to make you a beautifut and equally functional kitchen-knife for half that price, even without meteorite iron. 

 

yeah, for that kind of money I'd want it to come with a fully equiped kitchen and Gordon Ramsey for a year!

 

Nice knives, but some people just have too much money......Alas, I am not one of them!

[Robert S]

Hmm... Maybe someday if I get kitted out for serious forging I'll have to try the meteorite that has been my fingering stone for the last 50 years or so .  And no, I didn't pay a fortune for it - found it back in my rockhounding days.

[ROKUJURO]

Robert,

please consider that in repeated fire-welding of steel, up to 75% of the material will be turned into scale and be lost. So unless you have a fingerring of a considerable mass - let's say a pound - it is not worth a try.

[John C]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

please consider that in repeated fire-welding of steel, up to 75% of the material will be turned into scale and be lost. So unless you have a fingerring of a considerable mass - let's say a pound - it is not worth a try.

Jean:

A forging question. Would you be able to forge the knife to say 80 percent rough shape, drift a hole into the wide part of the blade (near the ricasso perhaps), then insert the stone Heating and forging just enough to set it?

 

John C.

[ROKUJURO]

John,

of course you could fix an insert in a steel billet or in a raw blade by fire-welding, but I believe that some preliminary tests would have to be made.

Not all meteorites are of the nickel-iron type, but what makes some of them so spectacularly looking is the WIDMANNSTÄTTEN crystalline structure. Unfortunately, it will be destroyed in the fire. The result will not look extraordinary, I am afraid.

In case you wanted to integrate a piece of a meteorote into a knife, the handle would probably be a better place for that. 

[John C]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

WIDMANNSTÄTTEN

Thanks. This is what I was thinking about.

 

John C.