Study a mei

[Jacques]

In the attached photo, you can see two of Kiyomaro's signatures; both have the same nengo, but there are a few differences between them. Can you spot them? 
On the other hand, there are some characteristics that are always present in Kiyomaro's signatures, can you identify them?

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

Greetings, Monsieur Jacques! Looks like 永's dot on the top is in different directions? The 白 in 源 is a little different, too. I'm not sure what is the constent in Kiyomaro's Mei, though.

[CSM101]

This is an analysis for Inoue Shinkai and what to look for. You can't find something like that in the Kiyomaro Taikan, 200 years Kiyomaro, Minamoto Kiyomaro and Kotetsu & Kiyomaro.

 

So, please shed some light.

 

 

Edited July 15 by CSM101

[Bruce Pennington]

What Joe said, plus 1 stroke vs 2 strokes in this kanji

[Natichu]

In terms of things that strike me the same, the 年 kanji looks remarkablt consistent, but also the weighted right side (thickening of the line, sharp angular end) of the main horizontal strokes in each of kanji is quite notable. 

[Jacques]

Two have been found, but there are still more. Where are the experts? 

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

 

Is one of them this? I never notice that this part sometimes elongates. It's clearer in this ("Kiyomaro's Mei" by Fujishiro Yoshio Sensei).

 

 

Also perhaps this?

 

 

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

Just some other Kaei 2 2, not sure if there is any Gimei.

 

 

(Juyo from Minamoto Kiyomaro Exhibition by Shinano Daily News)

 

 

(From Tosho Zenshu by Shimizu Tooru Sensei, looks like the one above?)

 

 

(Another version of Oshigata of the one on the right)

 

 

(Utsushi-Ji version of the one on the left by Fujishiro Sensei)

 

 

There is a Kaei 2 2 in Juyo 25 with Kiritsuke-Mei, I wonder what's that like......

 

 

Also is the one on the left is from Juyo 35?

 

 

Wait, if the only Kaei 2 2 Katana in Juyo 1~66 is a one with Kinzogan-Mei, then what's with that Juyo Katana from the Kiyomaro Exhibition?

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

 

 

Fujishiro Sensei's Utsushi-Ji seems to stress the bulge in the middle in this stroke on the left one. The right one doesn't seem to have this trait...?

[Jussi Ekholm]

The Kiyomaro exhibition one is from Jūyō 25. Here is the item attached, it is easy to match it as there are the dots around the year. The kiritsuke mei is for the 1854 dated one in Jūyō 25. Unfortunately my early Index version contained some errors as I manually typed in all the items, so there were few accidents where I typed kiritsuke mei for wrong item. Now that I have done Index up to Jūyō 71, I have corrected almost all the errors over the years but I still find an error or two in the data every year.

 

There should be at Jūyō level 3 katana and 1 wakizashi by Kiyomaro that are dated to this year, 4 items in total. Unfortunately I only track items pre Ōnin war, so I don't have conclusive data on Kiyomaro. 

 

 

I believe the 3rd picture on your post with many signatures Joe is the signature of Jūyō 35 wakizashi.

[Bugyotsuji]

There are lots of other differences, but the final 日 seems constantly written with a hook down the right, making it look like a small 月.

[Jacques]

Answer tomorrow.. Still waiting for the expert advices as we can see on the Shintogo Kunimitsu tanto's topic.

Edited July 17 by Jacques

[Jacques]

Here it is

[Jacques]

The constant element (it must appear at least once in the mei or the nengo)