Lowest rated Juyo swords?

[Jacques]

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- what is an “artistic merit” and who judges that?

Good question, and I challenge anyone here to give me a good definition of it. For example, what makes one ji nie better than another?

[Mikaveli]

For ji nie, I'd start with Markus Sesko's summary:

 

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As for ji-nie, the same rule applies as for the jigane, that means we speak of a high-quality ji-nie when it is fine and uniform or when it was deliberately applied, i.e. when for example a partially rough and accumulating ji-nie was the style in which the smith worked. 

 

So, evidence of uniformity or deliberate application. Still somewhat subjective, especially if we're trying to establish the very best, rather than a boolean split into high and low quality.

[Jacques]

21 hours ago, Mikaveli said:

For ji nie, I'd start with Markus Sesko's summary:

 

 

So, evidence of uniformity or deliberate application. Still somewhat subjective, especially if we're trying to establish the very best, rather than a boolean split into high and low quality.

On paper it's easy, but with a sword in hands it's a different story. Can you see the subtlety? I can't. I haven't yet reached that level of knowledge. 

 

As for those who claim to judge the quality of a sword based on a few photos, give me a break.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

As for those who claim to judge the quality of a sword based on a few photos, give me a break.

Not true. I've seen this sword in hand and I can say emphatically, this photo is a good representation of the quality of workmanship the blade exudes. What is true is that photos are only as good as the photographer and his equipment, as this example demonstrates. The midare utsuri is just as vivid in hand as it is in the image, as is the nioiguchi in the hamon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Have to agree with Jacques, even the very best photos pale to the real thing at these levels. Some dealers are doing videos which are a big improvement, certainly helpful for summary studying of a blade for research or Kantei practice. However it seems absolutely nuts to me spending that amount on a sword without being able to view it hand at leisure. 

[Mikaveli]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Have to agree with Jacques, even the very best photos pale to the real thing at these levels. Some dealers are doing videos which are a big improvement, certainly helpful for summary studying of a blade for research or Kantei practice. However it seems absolutely nuts to me spending that amount on a sword without being able to view it hand at leisure. 

 

The videos are a big improvement. One of the biggest drawbacks of photos, is you tend to need so many - to see detail across the sword, different angles and lighting etc.

 

I'd say it's possible to get some indication from photos, but there's usually a lot of detail that's easy to miss. Just look at the sellers that are able to take selective photos to mask flaws etc.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have collected c. 80% of the Jūyō books and for statistical nerd like me they are worth their weight. Most important thing for me are the actual cm measures of the swords, they allow me to create a good mental image of each sword. However I couldn't really say much about those swords quality wise by just reading the entries from the book. There are many things that make me scratch my head but I must just agree that the experts know so much than me and their view is much more valid than mine.

 

I tried to look into Ichige Norichika as unfortunately I am compeletely clueless about that smith. I believe he is sometimes regarded as the best Mito swordsmith by experts. His contemporary Naoe Sukemasa also has similarish Jūyō record 6 passes between sessions 17-27 and then 2 passes 41 & 42, while Ichige Norichika has 5 passes in sessions 17-25. Their teacher Ozaki Suketaka has 3 passes in 14-20 and 1 sword passed in session 63.

 

Now for some older Jūyō sessions NBTHK gave out very detailed submission and pass numbers in their magazine. Here I will focus on the very large sessions 23,24,25,26, that have fairly large submission numbers and extremely high overall pass rate. So lot of Jūyō items in these sessions. It might not be known that well but during this time NBTHK gave Kotō and Shintō submission numbers.

 

Session 23

Kotō 557 submitted and 337 passed - Shintō 364 submitted and 156 passed -> so Kotō has 61% pass rate and Shintō has 43%

Session 24

Kotō 590 submitted and 356 passed - Shintō 428 submitted and 127 passed -> so Kotō has 60% pass rate and Shintō has 30%

Session 25

Kotō 450 submitted and 250 passed - Shintō 369 submitted and 91 passed -> so Kotō has 56% pass rate and Shintō has 25%

Session 26

Kotō 366 submitted and 282 passed - Shintō 211 submitted and 88 passed -> so Kotō has 77% pass rate and Shintō has 42%

 

I know people have done pass rate calculations etc. as many would want to "beat" the game and get the maximum amount of info would be helpful in this. However NBTHK stopped giving out the submission numbers for Kotō and Shintō and just had overall number for swords from session 29 onwards. Roughly from 29 to 39 sessions the number of swords submitted in overall reached c.1500 swords per shinsa session and only between 8% to 15% items in overall passing. So pretty radical change was made at that time.

[Jacques]

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this photo is a good representation of the quality of workmanship the blade exudes.

You don't know the difference between good workmanship and art.

[Sukaira]

This thread 🍿

[Lewis B]

8 hours ago, Jacques said:

You don't know the difference between good workmanship and art.

Artistry is subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

[Jacques]

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Artistry is subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

Absolutely not but it's a thing you don't understand

[CSM101]

Dear Jacques,

 

Try to get a copyright from Paul R. Allman's "Visions within Visions". Read it. Read it again. Try to understand what is written. And then come back.

 

You are a lot, but not an art critic.