Influences on Satsuma Masayoshi Line

[neo1022]

Hi all,

I’m trying to clarify the training of the shodai Masayoshi (正良)—founder of what Sesko refers to as the "Satsuma Masayoshi school."  I’m interested in understanding how these lineage-specific influences shaped what we think of as the late-Edo Satsuma style as exemplified in the work of sandai Masayoshi/Masayuki and related smiths.
 

Sesko’s genealogy lists the shodai Masayoshi as trained under Naminohira Yasuchika and Izu no Kami Masafusa. That pairing would explain a blend of local Naminohira / Yamato-leaning traits with the Mino / Sōshū infusion tracing to Masafusa and his father, Ujifusa.  The Masafusa link seems very well supported, but I’m not able to find any non-Sesko support for the Yasuchika connection.  If anyone has additional information on this, I’d appreciate it…
 

I have also found many online sources that claim "[Satsuma] Masayoshi" was trained by Masachika (which I suppose would then also trace Satsuma’s Sōshū-leaning tendencies to Mondo no Shō Masakiyo).  There is no way they’re referring to the sandai Masayoshi, since he would have been quite young (~8 yrs old) when Masakiyo died.  Since Masachika is roughly contemporaneous with the both the shodai and nidai Masayoshi, might this be a later-generation apprenticeship (i.e., shodai Masayoshi trained under Naminohira Yasuchika and/or Izu no Kami Masafusa while nidai apprenticed under Masachika as well as his father)?  In other words, an original lineage substrate of Naminohira / Yamato + Mino / Sōshū training, with subsequent Sōshū-den reinforcement via Masachika.
 

I’m sure I’m missing something basic here, but I don’t have enough sources to sort this out (assuming they even exist…).  Can anyone help clarify these questions for me, or suggest a solid reference?
 

Many thanks!

[neo1022]

Good suggestion to contact Marcus directly.  But I'm also an optimist -- perhaps a Satsuma guru is lurking on here...

[neo1022]

While looking further into the question I posted above, I came across an Izumi City historical leaflet that describes the training of Uehara Masayoshi (shodai "Satsuma Masayoshi") as follows:

“At first he studied swordsmithing in the Takada tradition (Ōita City). Next, he learned the Naminohira tradition (Kagoshima City) under either Yamato no Kami Yasuyuki or Yasuchika. Furthermore, in the first year of Kyōhō (1716), he 'entered the gate' of the famous Sōshū tradition swordsmith of Satsuma, Maruta Masafusa. He made all three traditions entirely his own.”

「はじめ高田伝（大分市）について刀鍛冶を習い、ついで波平伝（鹿児島市）を大和守安行または安周から学び、さらに享保元年（1716）には、薩摩の相州伝名刀匠丸田正房の門に入り、三伝ことごとく自分のものとした。」

 

 

This passage describes a three-stage apprenticeship beginning in the Takada-den of Bungo (Mino-influenced Kyūshū style), progressing to the Naminohira-den (Yamato-derived Satsuma style), and culminating with Satsuma Sōshū training under Maruta Masafusa (so, here's the synthesis of Mino, Yamato, and Sōshū influences!).

The reference to early Takada-den training—which I haven’t seen anywhere else—suggests that the Bungo Takada school provided the shodai Masayoshi’s technical foundation prior to the Naminohira and Sōshū training that directly shaped his line’s late-Edo Satsuma work. 

On the Naminohira side, the sequence Maruta Izu no Kami Masafusa, 2nd gen ->Yamato no Kami Yasuyuki -> Yasukuni -> Yasuchika is standard; given Yasuchika’s period of activity (1704–1741), he looks to be the likelier Naminohira teacher for the shodai (the leaflet’s “Yasuyuki or Yasuchika” probably reflects chronology confusion).

 

As for “entering the gate” of Maruta Masafusa, that can only refer to the 3rd-gen Maruta Sōzaemon Masafusa (1681–1716), not the Izu no Kami Masafusa (presumably 2nd-gen, 1658–1681) suggested in Sesko’s genealogy.

 

I suspect common claim that ”Masayoshi” trained with Masachika applies to the nidai or perhaps sandai generations.  The pathway appears to be from Maruta Sōzaemon Masafusa (1681–1716) -> Mondo no Shō Masakiyo (1664–1730) -> Masachika (dated blades 1735, 1743).  I wonder if there’s any primary documentation supporting this link, which represents a second Masayoshi line connection to Maruta Sōzaemon Masafusa via Mondo no Shō Masakiyo and his son…

 

This does seem to reconcile the confusing data I presented in my original post.  I feel like I’ve either figured something out or fabricated a complete fiction.  Problem is, I can’t tell which…

Any insights, thoughts, or comments are welcome...

 

Edited Sunday at 07:29 AM by neo1022

[When Necessary]

Hi Kevin,

Because of my being so upfront with you, my account was suspended for 24 hours (stuff like that happens around here when the guy in charge doesn't like you).

However, I noticed that no one, apart from me, has bothered replying to you. Ergo, I stand by my earlier comment that you should contact Marcus directly or perhaps try Facebook for answers.

[Brian]

Yeah, why don't you quote the rest of your comment? Here..let me refresh your memory.
 

2 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Here, you are only guaranteed a prompt answer when asking about an obvious Chinese fake which even a simpleton could spot.

Alas, your question is far too erudite and well researched to garner much of a response.

Keep criticizing and insulting the forum you are on, and I'll be glad to make it permanent along with a decent IP block.
Oh yeah....try Facebook for answers?   

[When Necessary]

Well you are the Chinese fake expert Brian - passing judgement on them does seem to make up about 70% of your comments.
Keep up the sterling work, old chap!

 

As  to Facebook, why mock trying any other social platform when not a single one of your 'elite' membership has attempted to answer Kevin?

Edited yesterday at 06:23 PM by When Necessary

[neo1022]

Well, this is not what I hoped for with this thread…

[Mushin]

Might also want to try reaching out to Bill Miller in Atlanta. If I am not mistaken, he has one of the biggest Satsuma collections in the world. Then there is Tanobe-sensei, who is also from he area and a collector of Satsuma blades. Robert Hughes might be able to help you direct questions to Tanobe. Best of luck.

[Sukaira]

I also don't have any direct data on this, but would be interested if found. The leaflet saying the Shodai trained with Naminohira is not too hard to believe though, since they were a Satsuma institution since the Heian essentially. Maybe that little bit of info was documented in a Japanese text somewhere and that was simply the extent of it?

[neo1022]

3 hours ago, Sukaira said:

I also don't have any direct data on this, but would be interested if found. The leaflet saying the Shodai trained with Naminohira is not too hard to believe though, since they were a Satsuma institution since the Heian essentially. Maybe that little bit of info was documented in a Japanese text somewhere and that was simply the extent of it?

Yes, I’ve been able to track down the original Japanese source for this claim, as well as an interesting genealogy for the Ijichi family line (I.e., the Masayoshi line) which, while not shedding light on swordsmithing, does establish them as key Shimazu retainers since the 1300s, as well as hinting at their deeper roots.  Will share more once I’ve assimilated the info. Thanks!

[neo1022]

3 hours ago, Mushin said:

Might also want to try reaching out to Bill Miller in Atlanta. If I am not mistaken, he has one of the biggest Satsuma collections in the world. Then there is Tanobe-sensei, who is also from he area and a collector of Satsuma blades. Robert Hughes might be able to help you direct questions to Tanobe. Best of luck.

Excellent suggestions. Do you know if Bill Miller is active here?  Thanks!

[Mushin]

No, he is not as far as I know but if you are interested DM with your email and I can connect the two of you. Robert Hughes should be here and he possibly can help get Tanobe-sensei to take a look at your research question. Fingers crossed!