Edo or later? Help please

[Matsunoki]

Attempting to learn! This is advertised as 100% Edo with nice old maedate. Seller is apparently reliable.

Certainly visually impressive in excellent condition but is it Edo?

Tehen no kanamono looks “new”

Showa?

All opinions gratefully received!

Many thanks.

Colin

 

[Matsunoki]

Forgot to say….hachi is iron, shikoro is leather.

[uwe]

Very suspicious…

Do you have a picture from the underside or/ and interior?

[Matsunoki]

@uwe

Thanks for looking Uwe.

Further images…….

Just looks too good to be true??

[Lewis B]

Maybe the images are not clear enough but the red of the mabizashi looks painted and not urushi. 

[uwe]

Unfortunately the ukebari is hiding the internal appearance, but from what can be seen and despite the rather nice shape of hachi and shikoro, I dare say …. Not Edo!

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Many thanks Uwe. This is a tricky subject yes?🙂

[uwe]

Yes 🤓

There are several oddities leading me to this assumption. At first have look at the strange placement of the sankō no byō 😉

 

[Matsunoki]

I’ll have to go look that up🙂…..and then try to figure out what is strange.
It gets even trickier but at least my basic hunch was justified. 

again, many thanks 

[The Blacksmith]

The sankō no byō is the rivet in the centre of the mabezashi (peak), IIRC, holding the Oharaidate (crest holder). it seems extremely high in this instance, and oddly placed right on the  join of the koshimaki. Uwe, does the laquer where the suji meet the koshimaki seem a bit crude for Edo work?

[Bugyotsuji]

Vocab usage here, wearing my translator’s hat.

 

三光鋲 Sankōbyō, (or Sankō no byō), are the three ‘shining’ rivets holding on the mabisashi (and centrally the harai-daté dai), named it is said to represent three heavenly bodies, i.e. the sun, the moon and the stars.

 

Personally speaking, on balance I like the package above, but it is not easy to judge, especially from photos. The hachimanza may be newer, and the suemon on the fukikaeshi look slightly too large, as if a later addition.(?) No big deal though.

[Matsunoki]

To add another image…..are those rivet heads lurking under the lacquer? Does that suggest a genuine multi-plate construction?

[The Blacksmith]

Thank you for that explanation Piers, the san bit now makes sense, though I thought it only refereed to the centre fixing. Looking closer, it looks like the center rivet is a replacement, as perhaps is the oharaidate then? There is a hole where one would normally have expected the   sanko no byp to have have been.

[Bugyotsuji]

19 minutes ago, The Blacksmith said:

Thank you for that explanation Piers, the san bit now makes sense, though I thought it only refereed to the centre fixing. Looking closer, it looks like the center rivet is a replacement, as perhaps is the oharaidate then? There is a hole where one would normally have expected the   sanko no byp to have have been.

Good point, yes, definitely some later adjustments to what may well be an old hachi bowl underneath.

[The Blacksmith]

Just for the record, I used to know John Anderson, who will be well known to all Japanese armour lovers and collectors. And when showing John a suji bachi that I owned, John said that the helmet lining, I forget the name of it as this was forty years back, was only glued in place and that what he did, and then did with my permission, was to gently pull away the lining at the mabixashi a bit to gain access to the inside of the hachi. We could then read the mei, which in that particular case was Myochin Ujiiye and was dated Eisho 14th year (1518?). John then glued the lining in place again using Copydex, so that it was firm, but could easily be removed if desired.

[Bugyotsuji]

Interesting story about the ukebari, Russ.

I always hesitate to cut a hole in one, knowing it will not be easy to sew the edges of the new peephole. But now that you mention it, I once glued one in place, under supervision, so JA’s take does make sense.

[uwe]

4 hours ago, The Blacksmith said:

The sankō no byō is the rivet in the centre of the mabezashi (peak), IIRC, holding the Oharaidate (crest holder). it seems extremely high in this instance, and oddly placed right on the  join of the koshimaki. Uwe, does the laquer where the suji meet the koshimaki seem a bit crude for Edo work?

Yes, the lacquer seems not well done in these places. Along some of the suji as well (or are picture deceptive?).

Anyway, we need a glimpse inside 🤓

 

Colin, can you take some close ups of the shikoro in order to get an idea of its construction? Are there “lacquer noses” along some of the suji?

[Matsunoki]

In retrospect I should have just posted the link……lots of images if you scroll down.

Yes I know…..beware ebay!!!
 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=kabuto&_sacat=20081&_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313

[The Blacksmith]

20 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Interesting story about the ukebari, Russ.

I always hesitate to cut a hole in one, knowing it will not be easy to sew the edges of the new peephole. But now that you mention it, I once glued one in place, under supervision, so JA’s take does make sense.

John did this with two of mine without any problems, and the copydex held the llining firmly in  place afterwards. Thankyou, yes ukebari, i had forgotten the name of the liner! Just gently prise the liner away carefully to start with.

 

 

@Matsunoki I don't see the listing there now Colin. Do you have a lnk to the actual listing rather than the page? Maybe it has been taken down, or sold.

[Matsunoki]

@The Blacksmith

Hi Russ

It has been sold but not to me! It made hammer $2125. 
The learning continues…..with a degree of uncertainty sometimes🙂

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, The Blacksmith said:

 

@Matsunoki I don't see the listing there now Colin. Do you have a lnk to the actual listing rather than the page? Maybe it has been taken down, or sold.

Here you go

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/336125973144?_skw=kabuto&itmmeta=01K3DV6HPMPB48N5AYXZFZ3M7Z&hash=item4e42ab5298:g:WlwAAeSwFSVonqlS&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAAwFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cjQcwGybFcZSHjLdp1gHiMZfRbnzvHeCpWfwk%2FXAt3StTY5xsjSAcgt9RxVxv%2Ft%2FSV5x0fpbsPcgcmMG%2BNbWxDifwKSnFn2zF2SYLJGt1zppUjJUICT4N7sK%2BhkSEMIcexHY1684PQVv0HJO%2BzGj8nBp%2F6G86OzwEkL%2FUdqf2OzV%2B6M6ezQxNjCceKL6SfyAe4J0QRveGtCSJetVukcQ%2BKfoYrQcV%2FT48Luz9WREu4SA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7qbmrubZg

[The Blacksmith]

@Lewis B Thank you very much for that, it is much appreciated!