Jesta Posted August 2 Report Posted August 2 I found this listing on Jauce: https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1193696272 It rings alarm bells, but when I did a reverse image search I could only find similar pieces (that could be copies of this one), (see here: https://pcdetail.taobao.com/TXdRamNqMmVLQTNoYnB6U0djbCtMQT09.html) and the two in the second picture which are from LiveAuctioneers. The listing has disappeared from that site, which is also a bit suss... Am I wrong? Is this the original, made by a master, from which all others flow? Put me out of my misery… Quote
Geraint Posted August 2 Report Posted August 2 Dear Justyn. My vote is trust your instincts. The question I would ask is, 'Does this look like the work of a great craftsman?' Compare here, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hamano_Noriyuki_-_Tsuba_with_a_Chinese_Immortal_-_Walters_51267_-_Mark_B.jpg I would call this muddy, sort of out of focus and lacking the crispness you would want to see. And don't get me started on the design! I am sure others will chime in here. All the best. 5 Quote
Spartancrest Posted August 2 Report Posted August 2 Sorry Justyn, it is a modern copy - There is a few of the "originals" getting around utsushi made by hand but most are in museums. One in the Museum of Fine Arts Boston https://collections.mfa.org/objects/9935 One in the image [left] is from Musée des Arts Décoratifs - the one on the right is another modern fake - side by side there is little doubt. https://www.zacke.at/auction/lot/221-toshinaga-a-superb-suaka-tsuba-depicting-shoki/?lot=31121 - I have my doubts on this one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/236224456422 shocker from ebay - yuck https://www.ebay.com/itm/145101641124 Eyebrows from hell! ebay https://www.etsy.com/listing/1785329101/Japanese-antique-katana-tsuba-samurai I can only hope the bidders on the one at Jauce can back out of their bids. $800 AUD is way too much for a few grams of alloy! One done in Makie on a tansu - very popular design for a long time. Check the position and detail of the belt/obi in the seppa-dai area. 5 Quote
Jesta Posted August 2 Author Report Posted August 2 2 hours ago, Geraint said: I would call this muddy, sort of out of focus and lacking the crispness you would want to see. And don't get me started on the design! Yes, I also thought this… What threw me was the lack of other copies. It feels cast or stamped. The huge bidding war seems a bit worrying too… 1 Quote
Jesta Posted August 2 Author Report Posted August 2 1 hour ago, Spartancrest said: Sorry Justyn, it is a modern copy - There is a few of the "originals" getting around utsushi made by hand but most are in museums. One in the Museum of Fine Arts Boston https://collections.mfa.org/objects/9935 Thanks, as always… The one in the MFA seems to be the one that the modern Chinese copies come from (given the obi position), while the one for sale on Jauce looks more like the one on the tansu. I wonder when the different looks seeped into the fake market. Quote
Spartancrest Posted August 2 Report Posted August 2 9 hours ago, Jesta said: The huge bidding war seems a bit worrying too… The dealer should have taken the money and run! But no he is greedy and re-listed it at a huge starting price 200,000 yen - I do hope people give it a closer look next time they bid [if ever]. I don't like all those little holes in Shoki's hair and the "paint" should always stay within the lines children! Good copy compared to many, but still it should be advertised as what it is - a copy. This might not be the place to say it but as none of these - even the utsushi "real ones" - have ever been near a sword, are they tsuba? Or are they in reality "tsuba like" objects of art? 3 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 2 Report Posted August 2 Are you kidding me! About $1350 for this tsuba, and it is a fake! Hence my philosophy, if you don't spend a lot you can't get bit for a lot! I will stick to eBay and my bargains! Just my opinion! 1 Quote
Jesta Posted August 3 Author Report Posted August 3 2 hours ago, Spartancrest said: The dealer should have taken the money and run! But no he is greedy and re-listed it at a huge starting price 200,000 yen - I do hope people give it a closer look next time they bid [if ever]. I don't like all those little holes in Shoki's hair and the "paint" should always stay within the lines children! Good copy compared to many, but still it should be advertised as what it is - a copy. This forum has been a great place to learn, and all the little details were what worried me in the first place. Then people seemed to be so willing to pay serious money for it, so I wanted to check my intuition. I came back on this morning to see what it sold for and saw the Y200,000 price tag… Genuinely shocked. Quote
Spartancrest Posted August 3 Report Posted August 3 I found these two listed back in 2022 and 2023 - both identical except in the finer detail, the eyes and the silver sword blade tarnish pattern. I might have thought this was the same guard just re-sold at a later date, but for the fact that generally older pieces [six months in this case] don't get better and change that much in so short a time. [2023 invaluable.com] It is the same guard as https://www.zacke.at/auction/lot/221-toshinaga-a-superb-suaka-tsuba-depicting-shoki/?lot=31121 that Sold for €3,120 I think someone got stung big time back then. When you consider that a supposed genuine piece sold for that much back then, why would the seller of this new copy be content to list his piece on a run of the mill auction site like Jauce? Why is he not selling it through Christie's or one of the other big companies? [Not that Christie's, Bonhams etc know what they sell!] 2 1 Quote
Jesta Posted August 3 Author Report Posted August 3 6 hours ago, Spartancrest said: It is the same guard as https://www.zacke.at/auction/lot/221-toshinaga-a-superb-suaka-tsuba-depicting-shoki/?lot=31121 that Sold for €3,120 I think someone got stung big time back then. Just goes to show that value is determined entirely by what someone will pay for something. There’s no objective value to these items, and that value will fluctuate as people get more, or less, willing to pay. In the current case it appears, for now at least, that the value of the piece is in the Y70,000 range since no-one is bidding beyond that. It will be interesting to see where this one goes. 1 Quote
Spartancrest Posted August 3 Report Posted August 3 6 hours ago, Jesta said: Value is determined entirely by what someone will pay for something. Hey Justyn - https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/1785329101/Japanese-antique-katana-tsuba-samurai?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details This one is honest - vintage from the 1980s but they still sold it for AU$227.27 https://item.rakuten.co.jp/shicmx/tong09/ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007687728236.html Oh no https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1193696272 sold for that stupid high price 200,000 yen - Just one bidder! NOT A WINNER IMHO ! 1 Quote
Jesta Posted August 3 Author Report Posted August 3 Wow… I think that if I want something like this I will go with the S$16 from aliexpress… I can always sell it on Jauce 🤔🤣 1 Quote
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