Is this sword more of Soshu or Yamato ?

[Bosco]

Hi everyone, just got a photo of this blade. This is all I got. Base on the shape and size can we tell which one this blade more influenced on ?. 
 

By the way it’s an O-suriage, how do we know it’s originally a Tachi or Odachi ?.

 

Thanks all.

[Lewis B]

What are the measurements? At first glance it appears more Soshuden influenced than Yamato. 

[Bosco]

5 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

What are the measurements? At first glance it appears more Soshuden influenced than Yamato. 

Sorry I forgot about this

 

Nagasa : 71cm

Sori: 1.2cm

元幅 : 3.5cm 元重 : 7.5cm 先幅 : 2.66cm 先重 : 5.2mm

[eternal_newbie]

Soden Bizen? Looks superficially like some Osafune Kanemitsu blades I've seen.

[Bosco]

30 minutes ago, eternal_newbie said:

Soden Bizen? Looks superficially like some Osafune Kanemitsu blades I've seen.

I just googled it and it does look very close.

[oli]

Yamato Shizu? I saw one in Utrecht

[Bosco]

Just now, oli said:

Yamato Shizu? I saw one in Utrecht

This is what others told me. It’s a mixture of Soshu-Yamato Shizu and little bit of Mino. 

[oli]

an example of: https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumeitransmitted-as-yamato-shizuthe-37th-juyo-token/ 

https://eirakudo.shop/token/tachikatana/detail/206481

 

Interesting school, i like it. 

[oli]

also a good source about soshu:

https://www.nihonto-museum.com/swordsmith/masamune-no-jittetsu

[Jacques]

Sorry, but I don't practice the art of divination. The hamon seems to be based on notare which is a characteristic of Soshu den but I can't say more. We should know if the hamon is in nie deki or not what the size of the nie is, what the structure of the hada is etc.

[Ooitame]

The kissaki and boshi lead to an impression of utushi of some sort.

[Schneeds]

Some information from the Darci:

 

"The whole Shizu thing is a bit of a mess but I would rank them like this

 

1. Shizu Kaneuji

2. Yamato Shizu Kaneuji

3. Naoe Shizu

4. Yamato Shizu

 

Yamato Shizu may just be a synonym for Nanbokucho Tegai in many ways.

 

There is no bias against it but we always have to remember that the attribution on a mumei blade is the first form of quality assessment.

 

Kaneuji is a first tier swordsmith. As you progress down some of those blades are so confusingly similar in construction that the list of features could be pegged to any of the four. So if it is best of all Yamato Shizu school it goes to 2. If it is not it goes to 4. The weakest of 1 will overlap with the best of 3.

 

The weakest of 1 will be below the best of 2.

 

Some of the weakness can be ascribed to condition and it may be factor in it passing juyo or not.

 

With Yamato Shizu you need to assume it is a school attribution unless it's indicated somehow otherwise. Either it's said to be Kamakura which is a quiet nod to Kaneuji or someone disambiguates by adding Kaneuji to the description.

 

As you shift down lower in the reputation tree you need the work to burn brighter to make up for it. One of the most beautiful tanto I know of (very flashy style) is 2nd generation Yamato Shizu Kaneuji and signed. It is Tokuju. So the work needs to particularly elevate as a masterpiece and that it is signed removes some of the attribution as quality assessment indications.

 

It always needs to be thought of like this:

 

A Shizu is almost a Masamune but not quite. That not quite is what makes it Shizu. Not because we have a time portal and know the truth. The best Shizu have always been mixed into Masamune and are very hard to extract. The same logic applies at Naoe Shizu to Shizu. Not quite good enough. Yamato Shizu is like what side of the 50% line does it stand for Yamato features and/or quality? Some you can argue for one or the other and your opinion is ok.

 

A Suriage Masamune wak can be Juyo Bunkazai but a suriage Yamato Shizu school attribution can't. Not because there is bias against Yamato Shizu school but if it was better it would be Kaneuji as mumei. Even better it could be Masamune and then qualify. So the attribution is returning a judgment already. 

 

Yamato Shizu ... best can pass Tokuju. But there is a high bar. The bar for Juyo is high as seen. There are three Tokuju all good length katana. First says Kamakura period (so is Kaneuji). Ne t two say beginning of Nanbokucho but the maker is additionally said to be Kaneuji specifically. So, no school blades. 2 of 3 from famous daimyo which helps. Not because the daimyo had it. But the daimyo had it because it was outstanding. So again have to key on the right bit of info and know which is cart and which is horse.

 

Compare to Shizu himself after Masamune and now there are 14 Tokuju, 9 jubi and 6 Juyo Bunkazai. So you can see the difference in what the attribution means. Those best of Yamato Kaneuji may be better than a conventional Shizu. But in general all other things factored out a Shizu attribution is just that half to full notch better than even Yamato Shizu."

 

I know very little, but agree with Lewis. Perhaps Naoe Shizu could be a candidate?  I like it either way though. 

[Bosco]

52 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

Some information from the Darci:

 

"The whole Shizu thing is a bit of a mess but I would rank them like this

 

1. Shizu Kaneuji

2. Yamato Shizu Kaneuji

3. Naoe Shizu

4. Yamato Shizu

 

Yamato Shizu may just be a synonym for Nanbokucho Tegai in many ways.

 

There is no bias against it but we always have to remember that the attribution on a mumei blade is the first form of quality assessment.

 

Kaneuji is a first tier swordsmith. As you progress down some of those blades are so confusingly similar in construction that the list of features could be pegged to any of the four. So if it is best of all Yamato Shizu school it goes to 2. If it is not it goes to 4. The weakest of 1 will overlap with the best of 3.

 

The weakest of 1 will be below the best of 2.

 

Some of the weakness can be ascribed to condition and it may be factor in it passing juyo or not.

 

With Yamato Shizu you need to assume it is a school attribution unless it's indicated somehow otherwise. Either it's said to be Kamakura which is a quiet nod to Kaneuji or someone disambiguates by adding Kaneuji to the description.

 

As you shift down lower in the reputation tree you need the work to burn brighter to make up for it. One of the most beautiful tanto I know of (very flashy style) is 2nd generation Yamato Shizu Kaneuji and signed. It is Tokuju. So the work needs to particularly elevate as a masterpiece and that it is signed removes some of the attribution as quality assessment indications.

 

It always needs to be thought of like this:

 

A Shizu is almost a Masamune but not quite. That not quite is what makes it Shizu. Not because we have a time portal and know the truth. The best Shizu have always been mixed into Masamune and are very hard to extract. The same logic applies at Naoe Shizu to Shizu. Not quite good enough. Yamato Shizu is like what side of the 50% line does it stand for Yamato features and/or quality? Some you can argue for one or the other and your opinion is ok.

 

A Suriage Masamune wak can be Juyo Bunkazai but a suriage Yamato Shizu school attribution can't. Not because there is bias against Yamato Shizu school but if it was better it would be Kaneuji as mumei. Even better it could be Masamune and then qualify. So the attribution is returning a judgment already. 

 

Yamato Shizu ... best can pass Tokuju. But there is a high bar. The bar for Juyo is high as seen. There are three Tokuju all good length katana. First says Kamakura period (so is Kaneuji). Ne t two say beginning of Nanbokucho but the maker is additionally said to be Kaneuji specifically. So, no school blades. 2 of 3 from famous daimyo which helps. Not because the daimyo had it. But the daimyo had it because it was outstanding. So again have to key on the right bit of info and know which is cart and which is horse.

 

Compare to Shizu himself after Masamune and now there are 14 Tokuju, 9 jubi and 6 Juyo Bunkazai. So you can see the difference in what the attribution means. Those best of Yamato Kaneuji may be better than a conventional Shizu. But in general all other things factored out a Shizu attribution is just that half to full notch better than even Yamato Shizu."

 

I know very little, but agree with Lewis. Perhaps Naoe Shizu could be a candidate?  I like it either way though. 

Hi Erik. Thank you for your information. I got more info on this sword. 
 

NPO NTHK gave it Yushu Gatana award. Its attributed to Shizu Saburo Kaneuji .

 

 

[Natichu]

38 minutes ago, Bosco said:

Hi Erik. Thank you for your information. I got more info on this sword. 
 

NPO NTHK gave it Yushu Gatana award. Its attributed to Shizu Saburo Kaneuji .

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those show attribution to (den) Yamato Shizu? Not Kaneuji himself. So number 4 in Darcy's breakdown (though I'm not clear how NTHK vs NBTHK might factor in there). 

[Bosco]

Just now, Natichu said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those show attribution to (den) Yamato Shizu? Not Kaneuji himself. So number 4 in Darcy's breakdown (though I'm not clear how NTHK vs NBTHK might factor in there). 

The NPO NTHK paper said Yamato Shizu , yet on their own NPO NThK book they put the description as Shizu Saburo Kaneuji. I’m a bit confused as well. But despite the point, is NPO Yushu equivalent to Juyo ?. 

[eternal_newbie]

2 hours ago, Bosco said:

The NPO NTHK paper said Yamato Shizu , yet on their own NPO NThK book they put the description as Shizu Saburo Kaneuji. I’m a bit confused as well. But despite the point, is NPO Yushu equivalent to Juyo ?. 

That would be #2 on Darcy's tier list - Yamato Shizu Kaneuji. So I guess "not quite a Masamune, with solid Yamato influence in evidence." Although that assumes the NTHK have a similar mentality and criteria as the NBTHK when it comes to attributions (I don't have much experience with the NTHK so I can't comment on that).

[Bosco]

2 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

That would be #2 on Darcy's tier list - Yamato Shizu Kaneuji. So I guess "not quite a Masamune, with solid Yamato influence in evidence." Although that assumes the NTHK have a similar mentality and criteria as the NBTHK when it comes to attributions (I don't have much experience with the NTHK so I can't comment on that).

I’m acquiring this blade at the moment. Will see what it’s like in person. It’s very beefy and healthy for its age.

[Natichu]

8 minutes ago, Bosco said:

I’m acquiring this blade at the moment. Will see what it’s like in person. It’s very beefy and healthy for its age.

Interesting! If it's the one I'm thinking of I had been eyeing it for a while but never could bring myself to pull the trigger. Very glad to hear it would be going to a forum member and that we might get to see more pictures! 

[Bosco]

21 minutes ago, Natichu said:

Interesting! If it's the one I'm thinking of I had been eyeing it for a while but never could bring myself to pull the trigger. Very glad to hear it would be going to a forum member and that we might get to see more pictures! 

I love it at the first sign. So I made a phone call straight to Japan and I glad they have English speaking staff working at the time. So yeah. Thinking to get it NBTHK paper for it but its already has NPO paper ranking as Yushuto so not much to worry about, its a mumei at the end of the day. The thing that I love about it is its look so mean  😆.

[eternal_newbie]

44 minutes ago, Bosco said:

I love it at the first sign. So I made a phone call straight to Japan and I glad they have English speaking staff working at the time. So yeah. Thinking to get it NBTHK paper for it but its already has NPO paper ranking as Yushuto so not much to worry about, its a mumei at the end of the day. The thing that I love about it is its look so mean  😆.

 

That's a great attitude. In the end what matters is that you like the sword, and this one, whether it's Kaneuji or one of his students in Yamato Shizu or Naoe Shizu, is certainly a sword anyone would be proud to have. Good luck with your purchase!

[Jacques]

Quote

Some information from the Darc(y):

Darcy only ever gave his opinion, and that opinion was never based on verified facts.

[eternal_newbie]

23 minutes ago, Jacques said:

Darcy only ever gave his opinion, and that opinion was never based on verified facts.

 

And when it comes to mumei blades, that's ultimately true of NBTHK and NTHK attributions too, unless the provenance of the sword is known (and sometimes even then it gets "downgraded"). Buy blades that you like, and if the shinsa groups agree with you that's a bonus.

[Schneeds]

4 hours ago, Bosco said:

I love it at the first sign. So I made a phone call straight to Japan and I glad they have English speaking staff working at the time. So yeah. Thinking to get it NBTHK paper for it but its already has NPO paper ranking as Yushuto so not much to worry about, its a mumei at the end of the day. The thing that I love about it is its look so mean  😆.

That might be a good candidate for a Tanobe Sensei sayagaki if it's still in Japan

[Jacques]

Quote

Buy blades that you like, and if the shinsa groups agree with you that's a bonus.

You seem to be suggesting that buyers are more knowledgeable than the experts at NBTHK. That's very bold.

[eternal_newbie]

11 hours ago, Jacques said:

You seem to be suggesting that buyers are more knowledgeable than the experts at NBTHK. That's very bold.

 

I'm suggesting that buyers buy things which they will like regardless of what other people say. That way they won't be disappointed and feel like they've wasted their money when the experts change their mind or there turns out to have been a mistranslation of what the experts originally said.

 

OP seems to be doing just that, so I wish them well.

[Jacques]

Ok 

Back on that 

Quote

And when it comes to mumei blades, that's ultimately true of NBTHK and NTHK attributions too

I don't have the knowledge to judge it, Darcy didn't have it either, and I doubt you do.

[eternal_newbie]

8 minutes ago, Jacques said:

Ok 

Back on that 

I don't have the knowledge to judge it, Darcy didn't have it either, and I doubt you do.

 

Correct! I made a guess, which turned out wrong (Soden Bizen instead of Yamato Shizu).

[Bosco]

I doubt anyone can tell who made a mumei one anyway. To me, if the condition is great,  the era sound about right and the blade speaks to me then yes. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

1 hour ago, Bosco said:

"I doubt anyone can tell who made a mumei one anyway.."

 

Well if that's the case we must inform the NBTHK, NTHK (+NPO), and all other invested organisations or individuals, that this whole Kantei business has been a colossal waste of time and to cease operations immediately.....!

 

[eternal_newbie]

Now I remember why I stopped posting here years ago. All I was trying to do was wish a fellow traveler good luck and approve of their taste.

 

Guess I'll see if people have become less defensive and unpleasant in another 5-10 years.