Help Identifying a sword

[Ilovekatana]

I recently bought a new wakizashi and would like some help identifying it(Or at the very least a clue). Since I am currently waiting for it to ship out of Japan I only have the pictures from the seller. 

[ChrisW]

You bought a blade out of Japan and didn't take time to research it fully? That's a bit of a gamble, don't you think?

[Ilovekatana]

18 minutes ago, ChrisW said:

You bought a blade out of Japan and didn't take time to research it fully? That's a bit of a gamble, don't you think?

Fair enough. I mostly bought it because I like how it looked. I do know at least what the signature said which was sagami kuni junin masahiro saku. But other than that as a relative newbie(This is my second sword) I have very little knowledge on how to identify swords.

[Rivkin]

It looks like a good late Muromachi o tanto or ko waki.

I don't want to read the signature since Japanese is frankly a bit difficult for me. Don't know how I would kantei it otherwise - its sort of Soshu in terms of notare hamon and nakago but most Sagami schools have longer kaeri at the time and a little bit wider hamon.

[Ilovekatana]

39 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

It looks like a good late Muromachi o tanto or ko waki.

I don't want to read the signature since Japanese is frankly a bit difficult for me. Don't know how I would kantei it otherwise - its sort of Soshu in terms of notare hamon and nakago but most Sagami schools have longer kaeri at the time and a little bit wider hamon.

Interesting. It was being sold as being a late nanbokucho sword.  

[Rivkin]

Unlikely. There are some similarly styled Nobukuni's and Yamamura's from this period, but there are many differences... There was one generation of Masahiro who did similar things, but again I don't get the feeling for this period's steel. In theory - can be, but the shape is a bit off (too long, too large sori), hamon is bit too nioi etc. etc.. But like I said I have issues understanding this work. Stylewise very close to Nobukuni, but the nakago is not a typical one then. Otherwise it sort of Masahiro, but then kaeri is off.
I guess no papers?

It always helps being given the original link. A lot of beginners feel like they managed to get a super deal and they don't want to burn their secret supplier, but its usually not true.

 

[Ilovekatana]

31 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Unlikely. There are some similarly styled Nobukuni's and Yamamura's from this period, but there are many differences... There was one generation of Masahiro who did similar things, but again I don't get the feeling for this period's steel. In theory - can be, but the shape is a bit off (too long, too large sori), hamon is bit too nioi etc. etc.. But like I said I have issues understanding this work. Stylewise very close to Nobukuni, but the nakago is not a typical one then. Otherwise it sort of Masahiro, but then kaeri is off.
I guess no papers?

It always helps being given the original link. A lot of beginners feel like they managed to get a super deal and they don't want to burn their secret supplier, but its usually not true.

 

Here is a link to where I bought it from https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1122072219 . I do plan on submitting it for shinsa when I have the chance.

[Rivkin]

Ok that clarifies things a bit. Very straight bo utsuri, very weak hamon but high contrast jigane, this is circa 1510-1550. 

[Ilovekatana]

14 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Ok that clarifies things a bit. Very straight bo utsuri, very weak hamon but high contrast jigane, this is circa 1510-1550. 

Thank you for the help. I take the sword is likely a gimei?

[Bugyotsuji]

Looks like:

相模国住人正廣作

Sagami no Kuni Junin Masahiro Saku

 

[Jacques]

I'll always wonder why we buy something without knowing what it is.

[Jacques]

10 hours ago, Ilovekatanas said:

Thank you for the help. I take the sword is likely a gimei?

Don't believe everything you hear, there's no Bo utsuri in Soshu den

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well 76,000 yen isn't really too much, and I agree with you that I like the shape and size of the wakizashi. Like Kirill I would think possibly late Muromachi for the sword.

 

I have not seen an example by Nanbokuchō or even early Muromachi Masahiro having this signature. I feel 相州住正広 Sōshū jū Masahiro is the most common signature.

[Ilovekatana]

47 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Well 76,000 yen isn't really too much, and I agree with you that I like the shape and size of the wakizashi. Like Kirill I would think possibly late Muromachi for the sword.

 

I have not seen an example by Nanbokuchō or even early Muromachi Masahiro having this signature. I feel 相州住正広 Sōshū jū Masahiro is the most common signature.

According to this article here http://nihonto-museu...blog/soshu-tsunahiro apperently the first generation Soshu Tsunahiro signed like that minus the 作 at the end.

Edited January 29, 2024 by Ilovekatanas

[Jacques]

According the Nihonto meikan sandai Masahiro and shodai Tsunahiro used that signature (Sagami no kuni junin Masahiro)  sandai Masahiro worked during OEI (1394/1428).

[Rivkin]

17 hours ago, Ilovekatanas said:

Thank you for the help. I take the sword is likely a gimei?

 

For me its much harder to judge signatures compared to blades. On the one hand it does not look badly written and does look like a koto signature. On the other hand Sagami signatures tend to be bolder, with larger kanji, somewhat lower and at least with a bit more towards the center placement. They are also often faked. The work is not the most typical Masahiro but within roughly the same style. I think the possibility it papers is 50/50.

[Ilovekatana]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

 

For me its much harder to judge signatures compared to blades. On the one hand it does not look badly written and does look like a koto signature. On the other hand Sagami signatures tend to be bolder, with larger kanji, somewhat lower and at least with a bit more towards the center placement. They are also often faked. The work is not the most typical Masahiro but within roughly the same style. I think the possibility it papers is 50/50.

Once again thank you for the info. That at least gives me some hope.

[Jacques]

I can't find an oshigata of Tsunahiro signing Masahiro but below a good example of his mei. the whole style is different so i have some doubt on the validity. No oshigata from the sandai Masahiro, who was a minor smith, found. 

 

 

[Naomasa1584]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:47 PM, Rivkin said:

 

For me its much harder to judge signatures compared to blades. On the one hand it does not look badly written and does look like a koto signature. On the other hand Sagami signatures tend to be bolder, with larger kanji, somewhat lower and at least with a bit more towards the center placement. They are also often faked. The work is not the most typical Masahiro but within roughly the same style. I think the possibility it papers is 50/50.

I've heard based on this book I have, I don't feel like digging it out right now. It mainly focused on Bizens and Soshu. The book comes with a dvd as well. One contender would be Shizu blades (according to this author, I know hardly anything about Shizu blades)bc the author states that some Shizu blades were even attributed to Masamune's. So if there could be false attribution to his work, I would ass u me that it's even easier to get a false Soshu/Sagami attribution.

[eternal_newbie]

5 hours ago, Naomasa1584 said:

One contender would be Shizu blades (according to this author, I know hardly anything about Shizu blades)bc the author states that some Shizu blades were even attributed to Masamune's.

 

I would expect to see more masame/nagare in a Shizu blade, as well as a more active hamon. Also, Shizu is generally considered a higher attribution tier than Soshu Masahiro so putting a gimei of Masahiro on a sword that could pass as Shizu doesn't make sense from an economic perspective.

[Naomasa1584]

8 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

I would expect to see more masame/nagare in a Shizu blade, as well as a more active hamon. Also, Shizu is generally considered a higher attribution tier than Soshu Masahiro so putting a gimei of Masahiro on a sword that could pass as Shizu doesn't make sense from an economic perspective.

Oh, interesting. I read that some were honestly mistaken so I thought bc of that people would make gimei. So even though Masamune and some of his famous 10 students stayed pure Soshu, while I know 1 for sure combined Soshu with, I think Yamato.

   I guess I just thought bc Masamune was Soshu den that would make them top tier. But over the last few years I've personally found most notable daimyo seek Ko Bizen. Just glad I'm already learning things. Although I've said before, I find that with this interest I will seek the answer to something only to than have 10 new questions hahaha. Cool 

                      Andrew.

[Naomasa1584]

On 1/28/2024 at 4:51 PM, Ilovekatana said:

Fair enough. I mostly bought it because I like how it looked. I do know at least what the signature said which was sagami kuni junin masahiro saku. But other than that as a relative newbie(This is my second sword) I have very little knowledge on how to identify swords.

I'm also taken in if I absolutely love the look of a blade. Especially if it's not insane expensive. I would be happy you got a nihonto you really liked the look of, and most seem to believe it's Muromachi era. I like the idea of owning a Nihonto that could've been on someone's hip at Komaki or Nagakute. Most importantly Sekigahara!!! I wouldn't care if there was one that was mass produced but guaranteed present at the massive battle in the narrow mountain pass. To me that would be amazing.

                     Andrew.

[eternal_newbie]

25 minutes ago, Naomasa1584 said:

 I guess I just thought bc Masamune was Soshu den that would make them top tier.

 

Early Soshu is indeed top-tier, but the tradition began to decline during the Muromachi period for reasons which are still being speculated upon today.

 

Also worth noting that Shizu is Soshu - although Shizu Saburo Kaneuji was a smith who worked in Mino and is considered the founder of the Mino-den, in reality his works are mostly Soshu (being one of the Ten Disciples of Masamune) with Yamato influence, as are those of his immediate successors. This is the seed of what would eventually become what we recognize today as the Mino style of smithing. The Mino tradition proper doesn't really come together until several generations down the track.