Theories on the mix of Western and Japanese numbers on gunto

[John C]

Hello everyone:

I am currently researching "assembly" numbers and their exact meaning and usage.

But I was struck by the usage of both Western and Japanese numbers on the same gunto fittings. Does anyone know why they would do that? I could come up with a few theories, however I am interested in what you all (ya'll) think.

Thank you for your time,

John C. 

 

[SteveM]

During the war there was a shift away from using "foreign" (aka "enemy") words, and to replace them with Japanese words. Baseball (ベースボール) became yakyū (野球 = field ball), etc... I can imagine that as the war dragged on there may have been a similar shift away from western/arabic numerals to kanji. 

 

[John C]

2 hours ago, SteveM said:

During the war there was a shift away from using "foreign" (aka "enemy") words, and to replace them with Japanese words. Baseball (ベースボール) became yakyū (野球 = field ball), etc... I can imagine that as the war dragged on there may have been a similar shift away from western/arabic numerals to kanji.

I was wondering the same thing. Why would they use the language of the "enemy"? But your idea does give me something else to track...are western style numbers seen earlier, later, or all through out the war. 

Thank you,

John C.

[SteveM]

They were in use constantly from about the 1870s. They were taught in schools and used for calculations since Meiji, so there was no great effort to curb the use of western numerals during the war. I doubt they were even seen as "foreign" by that time. I just feel that some sword shops preferred to use kanji numerals, appealing to their (or their customers') sense of patriotism. 

 

[John C]

Makes sense. On my type 98, all of the fittings have beautifully stamped kanji numbers except the one part that is hidden. The wooden saya insert has the Western numbers.

John C.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

I thought this was interesting, though it probably doesn't mean a whole lot.

The pic is of 3 Kanehide gendaito. Notice that each one has two sets of numbers using the same letter - A; the first set seems to use the katakana letter and the second set uses the western letter A.

Do you think there is some connection with the Letter A in bluish-green paint to identify Kanehide's work or to identify a particular arsenal? Or, could this just be happenstance with these blades being forged around the same time so they got the same series letter.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Good question John. Any of your ideas might be the right one.  They might have all been part of a batch order given to a particular sword shop to outfit and the numbering system might have been done by the sword shop. But anything is possible.

 

Interesting that you identified a particular system on multiple blades!

[Kiipu]

A little missive of mine from early 2023.

Kanehide Gendaito Rinji questions

[John C]

Thank you for the link, Thomas. 

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

A little missive of mine from early 2023.

Kanehide Gendaito Rinji questions

It would be an interesting thing to find if the Tokyo RJT smiths blades had the stamped numbers, especially with the katakana combination, and then Nagoya RJT smiths had painted the numbers like John has shown.

 

John, have you seen any other letters other than “A“?

[John C]

57 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John, have you seen any other letters other than “A“?

The other kanehide pics I have show only numbers, however I have a Kanenobu (see pic) with the same A number system as the Kanehide but what looks like MU as the katakana.

John C.

Edited October 10 by John C
added info