Naginata or Nagamaki Tsuba?

[Bugyotsuji]

The other day I found this Tsuba. "Yamagane. It's probably a Nagamaki Tsuba. They are pretty rare," was all the seller could tell me.

 

That is the sum and the limit of my knowledge, other than that Yamagane (?) must be brass of some kind. Oh, it's 7.3 x 5.6 cm, and it's heavy & very thick, about 5mm at the seppa dai.

 

Can anyone flush out the picture here, re motif, material, usage, etc? Have I got the wrong end of the stick? Does anyone have a Nagamaki or Naginata Tsuba in their collection for comparison?

 

Hoping like will attract like!

[rkg]

Piers,

 

There's actually a variety of polearm tsuba, but here are a couple I currently have...

 

Here's the first - a naginata tsuba:

 

And here's one that was pulled off of a nagamaki (gotta love people who bust up a koshirae/blade), though

I now believe it was originally a tachi tsuba:

 

 

the sukashi on this one is filled with lead and it weighs a ton... it also has surface carving and brass decorations

under the lacquer.

 

On the piece you've posted, I could believe its for a nagamaki, but there's something odd about it - the carving/sukashi

is very "rustic" - almost too primitive - but maybe that's just me...

 

On the motif, is the sukashi at the bottom a turtle?

 

I should have photographed some of the other polearm tsuba I've handled over the years :-/

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks Richard for the feedback. Very interesting to hear your views and to see your tsuba.

 

A turtle? Well, that's what I was thinking, but what else could it be? When you say 'rustic', do you mean like a piece of garden furniture? :lol: Dunno.

[Ford Hallam]

yamagane; literally; mountain metal, generally refers to unrefined copper and is typically anywhere from a chocolate brown to almost black in colour when patinated.

[dirk marshall]

these are naginata tsuba but maybe I am wrong and considered seppa due to size.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ford, thanks for the clarification. I can't tell what it is. Dark greenish patina overall; it must have lain untouched for a long time. Only tiny little exposed flecks show yellowish or reddish hues. Dents along the mimi suggest the metal must be fairly soft.

 

Dirk, your examples above in copper and shinchu seem to reinforce an impression I am starting to form of overall simplicity in design. Should we be splitting this discussion into Nagamaki and Naginata, or are they treatable in common, I wonder ?

[Ford Hallam]

I may have missed something, in which case I'm sure I'll be "corrected" quickly but...what is the rationale that these guards are for Naginata or Nagamaki?

 

If it's the fact that the nakago-ana is rectangular I'd counter by saying that both those types of blade have essentially the same cross-section of the nakago as do regular sword blades.

 

I have seen the sort of guard that is essentially an over sized washer, almost a tanto tsuba, but they have always had recognizable sword shaped nakago-ana;

like this example here.

 

 

Just wondering where this idea comes from because I've never seen either of these sorts of pole arms mounted with regular sword type tsuba...but I haven't seen loads anyway so maybe I have missed something

 

Ford

[Bugyotsuji]

Very good question, Ford, and I for one shall be interested in the answer, if anyone can help.

[IanB]

All, The two small tsuba published by Dirk are of the type one sees on later naginata - where the tsuba is only slightly larger that the shaft and the seppa are only marginally smaller. These weapons were usually provided with a saya having a mouth that is extended to fit over the tsuba and first inch or so of the shaft - presumably to stop rain entering. Older naginata are usually depicted with a somewhat larger tsuba, sometimes mokko shape. I have one, with a Momoyama or very early Edo koshirae (distinquished by the lack of metallic mounts other than an extended copper collar at the top of the shaft). This has an oval copper tsuba that was obviously originally on a sword since it has an hitsu ana.

Ian Bottomley

[Ford Hallam]

Ian,

 

of course! you're absolutely correct about the pre Edo period mounts often being depicted with a guard of some sort. In fact, I was just browsing your own book on Samurai Arms and Armour for a suitable image to post...but they're all a bit small , the images, I mean

 

But my question remains, any guard that was made specifically for a naginata would have had a nakago ana essentially indistinguishable from that of a regular sword. So why are these tsuba with rectangular openings assumed to be Naginata tsuba?

[Guido]

So why are these tsuba with rectangular openings assumed to be Naginata tsuba?

[Bugyotsuji]

Some examples on pp 82 & 147 of Ian's "Arms & Armour of the Samurai".

[rkg]

these are naginata tsuba but maybe I am wrong and considered seppa due to size.

 

Dirk,

 

Nope, those are naginata tsuba - the ones you are showing are are seen a fair amount on edo period naginata koshirae.

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Bugyotsuji]

I wonder if the soft metal, the peculiar openings and the groove around the cicumference are all designed to catch and absorb the momentum of the point of an enemy spear or Naginata/Nagamaki?

[rkg]

Ford,

 

That's a good question, as usually the nakago on a naginata is vaguely sword shaped, though the older ones were

quite a bit thicker and have this relatively tall shinogi-ji - the ana in the two edo pieces in Dirk's image is vaguely what

you'd expect.

 

I haven't had enough caffeine this morning to remember clearly and currently don't have an ubu nagamaki in my collection

to look at to see if they were significantly different, though the Yamabushi site that that large "steering wheel" tsuba

attributed to have been mounted on a nagamaki with a triangular nakago ana. (I did not physically see the nagamaki

piece I have mounted up - it was one of those where the blade was by some big name koto guy that gets sent in for juyo and the

tatty orignal mounts get disposed of in pieces because they'd probably be worth less together - you gotta love that...).

 

The supposition from my drug-free brain would be that they didn't bother following the nakago ana exactly with these

"retrofits" because they didn't need to be all that precise thanks to the big shinogi-ji to stabilize it/didn't take the

time because they were polearms that were basically consumables.

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[IanB]

All, I did acquire a good nagamaki for the Royal Armouries Museum quite a few years ago and it is still on display with its koshirae. That had a magnificent iron tsuba, about large katana size, of octagonal outline with the mimi hammered up in an exaggerated way in the centre of each edge - rather Miochin looking if you know what I mean. As I remember it, the nakago, approaching three feet long, was virtually the same as on a naginata. The blade had a hammered-out signature that started 'Taima ...' but was more ichimonji in style with tight small choji hamon. The koshirae was interesting, being black lacquered with a bright red band spiralling from the hirumaki to the end of the saya. Since early nagamaki were often bound spirally with a strip of leather and then lacquered, I took the view this was in imitation of that style.

Ian

[Clive Sinclaire]

Hi all

I have an ubu nagamaki in my collection which has a dished or concave shaped 8 sided tsuba. It is quite crude and has brass inlay similar to Namban work. I always thought that as the last 12 inches or so of the shaft is wrapped like a sword's tsuka, ito over same, the tsuba doesn't appear incongruous.

Clive S

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... the plot thickens. Illustrations welcome!

[dirk marshall]

 

 

this was on andy quirts site but sold so only little picture but i have seen this style before

[dirk marshall]

the 2 tsuba are for the 2 naginata i have with fittings, both shinto one signed Kazusa no Suke Fujiwara Kaneshige, the other with a really flared kissaki

[Bugyotsuji]

Mmmm.... very nice!