what's the chance of that ?

[Bungo]

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/momotaro789

 

two kaneyie signed tsuba with both mei partially obliviated from the same source at the same time.

 

What's the chance they are shoshin ?

Looks like typical Nara school works to me but then I am more into design than actual " detail " work style of any particular school...........

 

opinion ?

 

p.s. since this is " active " on going auctions, I defer to the power of the three amigos...oops, I mean board moderators.

milt

[Pete Klein]

Nun.

[Brian]

Oh no...Pete found a way to work in the nun pic again!

It's a bad habit!

 

Brian

[Bungo]

The Penguin ( Blues Brothers )

 

milt

[Pete Klein]

Sister Mary Stigmata

Milt -- do not return to the board until you have redeemed yourself!

[Bungo]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... ie%3DUTF-8

 

The boys ( the loser group addressed her with full name )called her " The Penguin "..........

 

milt

[Pete Klein]

Actually the picture I posted is of Sr. Maria Guadelupe de la Gotta Pay, Patron Saint of Nihonto/Tosogu Collectors. Her ruler was made an exact replica of the ancient rules depicted on kogai and kozuka.

'Beware to those who sell the gimei or that of fallacious description as she will smite thee'!!!

[Rich T]

hahahahahaha, Pete's answer is nearly as funny as Milts question.

[Bungo]

it's not really a " question " but rather a " statement " ....... now how about someone dig up some valid mei examples ?

Remember the dry looking Nobuie example ? Not saying lightning will strike thrice but as our Secret Agent Man ( not you, Jean ) said " never says never, again ".

p.s. Pete, Did you have the same experience as i had in Catholic Boarding School ( 2 years under the " ruler " ) ?

Milt

[Rich T]

Hi Milt, all jokes aside, I do not think in this case that the mei has a lot to do with it. It is the work, This may be a copy of Kaneie (as you have already noted) but Kaneie it is not. One could argue that it could be Saga Kaneie, and that might be the case, though the first one isn't much chop in my opinion and the second one even worse, but even if they are Saga, then they are still not TRUE kaneie and still at the end of the day, only copies. The gist of all that is, whe ever made hem, I bet their name was Not Kaneie.

 

Call them Nara, or Aizu Shoami or whatever you like, but they are still considered just copies and probably in most schools of thought, gimei.

 

Just my 16 renminbi's worth.

 

Richard

[Brian]

Thanks for bringing the thread back on track Rich. We all know this forum allows a little more leeway in going off topic and having fun, but within limits folks. One or 2 funnies, but then back to the topic plz.

I wonder if these were originally made as copies of Nobuie, or were later recognised as being potentials for fakes, and had the mei added later? What is the general consensus on these types of tsuba?

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

I would say these are copies of Saga work, possibly Nara mass production pieces. I doubt they are Meiji Yokohama-mono as they have been mounted and tourist pieces would most likely not show this wear. Technically the Saga school came out of the two original Kaneiye generations (see Torigoye TAS), 'Tetsunin' the founder either being a preparer/student who moved to Higo then Hizen or perhaps came from Higo, studied with the second Kaneiye and adopted his style then went back to home. No one seems to know (at least to my knowledge) for sure. This 'Saga' school was capable of good work, some pieces signed in the likeness of the second Kaneiye, some signed by the actual maker, and some unsigned (see Torigoye TAS). In any case as with all popular styles they were copied ad-nauseam and the VAST majority of what we see today are fakes. The one way of seeing the difference is to study those few original pieces as the workmanship is vastly superior (there are several books available). Interestingly enough you actually have a better chance of finding a Nobuie than an original first or second generation Kaneiye as the first two generations were recognized very early on and hoarded by Daimyo, much as the works of Goto Yujo were by the Maeda Family.

 

note: TAS = 'Tsuba An Aesthetic Study', Torigoye & Haynes, http://www.NCJSC.org

[Bungo]

Pete,

Do you have Afu's Quarterly ?

In the introduction of the article by Takeuchi Fumio ( July 1975, NBTHK ), it seems like there are MANY theories regarding who the hack was/were Kaneie.......basicaly he called it an enigma.

So after 33 years post publication of that article, the consenus is there were 2 Kaneie , the rest were School works or copies or fakes ? You come across any articles/research as why this consensus come about ? Or.............they just says " trust me " ala Hank paulson ?

Go to work, you Baker street irregulars !!

milt

[Pete Klein]

Milt -- If you read through the entire article in the conclusion he states that there are two generations by both mei and stylistic elements. Now this is just his opinion (as he states) but it seems to be pretty much in line with everything I have read or heard on the subject. Those works after the first two masters are of the Saga School or later mass production fakes. All you need to do is study those pieces (pictures) which are considered of the first two generations and you will see a major difference between them and the later fakes. And the bottom line is that without actual verifiable documentation all of this falls under the category of 'best educated guess' so yes there is some 'trust' involved as there is with most of what we study (outside the well documented schools). Just the way it is.

[Rich T]

Yes, Pete touches on the most salient point here, the difference between the first two Kaneie, and the rest. It is like chalk and cheese, there is no comparison. And it is this huge difference that is what all of this assumption is based upon.

 

Your right about one thing though Milt, it is a lot easier to find a Nobuie than it is a Kaneie. They are rare beasts indeed.

 

Rich

[Bungo]

Correct me if I am wrong, Kaneie tsuba is more " pictorial " appreciation and less " structural " ( by that I mean treatment of iron ) while Nobuie is more " structural " appreciation ?

Taste( or the lack of ) is a funny thing....... the genuine Kaneie examples I see in that article translated by Afu really do not impress me that much. Some really lack " balance " but the author " explained " that " deficiency " away sort Palin-ish like ( sorry, moderators, that's the impression I got from reading the article and the best way to express that )...........hence my statement of Hank Paulson's " trust me ".

 

If given the choice, i'd rather have a Nobuie..at least I can try to see ( or imagine actually seeing )something on that wonderful iron surface.

 

milt

[Guido]

Customers Who Bought Tsuba By Kaneie Also Bought Paintings By Ma Yuan

[Bungo]

Hahahhaaaa, Ma Yuan , now that's an original while Kaneie is a copy.

Any thoughts on that ?

 

milt

[Guido]

Hahahhaaaa, Ma Yuan , now that's an original while Kaneie is a copy.

Any thoughts on that ?

Just for clarification (in case I got your reply wrong): I was refering to your "not getting" Kaneie, not the Tsuba in the first post - which, in my not so educated opinion, are a far cry from *real* Kaneie Tsuba. I, too, had problems to appreciate Kaneie until I saw some first hand - Ginza Choshuya had an exhibition of Kaneie a couple of years ago, and they even published a calender with Tsuba by him. Seeing them up close changed my perception quite a bit, and it really helps to know where he got his motif ideas from without actually copying them.

 

Neither Kaneie nor Ma Yuan are very impressive on first glance, one has to really study those art forms in order to understand and appreciate them. I'm not pretending that I got that far yet, but also wouldn't discount much more educated opinions than my own because "I don't like it". An open mind goes a long way in personal development of art appreciation and taste.

[Bungo]

Guido,

I am not dissing either one......... and not because both are considered " master " and I want to sound/act like some animal anatomy .

Honestly, the Kaneie examples illustrated in the article are not all that impressive, I like may be 4 of them out of ten or so.......... they are " simple/absract " in a way but there's no " wow, doggone it, you betcha they are good " ( my apology to a certain alaskan )punch, but then they are just pics and not in hands.

I just take exception when the placement is clearly out of balance and the author kept explaining it around and around ( again like the Alaskan ).

Don't forget I have a Kaneie ( arhhhh, Saga school, not the first/second ) and I think the pictorial treatment is just right.........

 

 

milt