Bruce Pennington Posted December 3, 2024 Report Posted December 3, 2024 Good one, Conway, thanks! Out of 22 showato in the chart, only 4 have a steel screw, so far. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 @Bruno and I have been discussing whether RS blades found in standard (light tan) fittings (originally, we were discussing late-war blades, but expanded) were tempered, had hamon, both or neither, and whether there was a progression of cutting edge treatments over time. I feel like this has been discussed in various random threads, and would like to consolidate our knowledge on a dedicated Type 3/Rinji/etc thread. I re-read Ohmura's page on them - Type 3 Report (Japanese only) - and Nick Komiya's pages and found nothing that specified how the standard rinji blade was to be made. Ohmura's report simply stated (English translation by Chrome): "The characteristics of the new saber are, first of all, the raw materials and the forging method - the first condition is that it does not break, does not bend, does not spill the blade, and has good cut, and in the case of hand-to-hand combat, it is hard (does not bend and has good cut) and is soft (does not break and does not spill the blade) In order to satisfy the contradictory conditions, the part that uses mechanical power is folded into the ancient Japan sword style that forges Japanese steel. 2. Shape and dimensions - pickaxe construction, the magnificent shape of the flower surface warping, first of all, it is close to the ancient Aishu tradition, and the cutting edge, the width of the body, the radius of the ground meat and the harmony of the warp are measured, and both the "thrust " and the slash are combined. In addition, the meat is sufficiently preserved, and the layering of the small pickaxe and the crucrum of the pine needle horn is thickened to give it a tense appearance of being beaten. The dimensions of the blade are 2 shaku 1 inch, 2 shaku 2 cun, and 2 shaku 3 inch, and the weight is 195 to 225 kg." also "The results of the experiment of Major Morinaga and other assistant professors of the Army Toyama School are excellent as shown on the left ▲ Straw cutting = When cutting two bales of straw soaked in water for a day and night, the response is light and the cutting taste is good, the average slashing amount is 170 % (roughly the same as the human torso), and there is no abnormality in the blade ▲ Green bamboo slash = 30-35 mm diameter green bamboo is put in the heart of a bale of straw and soaked in water for a day and night. ▲ Iron helmet slash = When cutting an iron helmet covered with cotton cloth soaked in water, a part of it is cut twenty millimeters long (conventional ones are generally not cut), and only a slight blade snail is created, and there is no other abnormality." I don't think you can make a sword cut steel helmets unless it's tempered. The "do not bend or break" definitely means it had to have been tempered. I have tons of RJT blades in upgraded fittings, and several non-star blades (mostly by RJT qualified smiths) with stamped numbers, which obviously had hamon of all styles. But I don't track standard RS gunto if they have no stamps. I'll go through my files of stamped blades, in RS fittings, to try building a survey of likely conditions - temper line? hamon? change over time? But could use everyone's help searching NMB for blades in standard fittings to build an observed consensus about the question at hand. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 I have gone through a few sections of my files, looking for RS gunto and will summarize what I have so far. Showa stamped blades - 424 on file; 345 not dated I did not examine the blades from 1935 - 1939 as the RS version wasn't announced until Dec 1940. 1940 - 1942 and Undated blades examined No Showa stamped blades were found in RS fittings Seki (large) stamped blades - 473 on file; 348 not dated 1940 - 1945 and undated blades examined No large Seki stamped blades were found in RS fittings Seki (small) stamped blades - 63 (2 undated) 1943 - 1945 (no observed blades with no dates) 1943 - 4 1944 - 10 1945 - 7 Na stamped blades - 144 (4 not dated) 1940 - 1945 1940 - 1942 - 0 1943 - 7 1944 - 12 1945 - 0 No date - 0 Observations 1. Undated blades: There are no undated blades found in RS fittings, regardless of stamps. It has been my loose opinion that undated blades were mostly made before the Army assumed control of blade production in 1942. The fact that are no undated blades observed in RS fittings leans toward supporting that idea. 2. It shocked me to see that there are no observed RS gunto with Showa or large Seki stamped blades. This is understandable for Showa blades (1935-1942) although there exists a chance some 1942 blades could have been found in RS fittings, none have been found. 3. It also shocked me to see no large Seki blades in RS fittings. The date range, 1940 - 1944 certainly made it possible, yet none have been found. Aside: Why would blades inspected by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association not be used in RS fittings? They were found in everything else - Type 94/98, Civil fittings, Kaigunto - but not one RS. 4. It appears that only arsenal inspected (small Seki, Na, and soon to be examined Gifu) blades are found in RS fittings. This will include star stamped RJT blades, yet to be examined, but they will be in upgraded RS fittings. 5. All non RJT blades in RS fittings have suguha hamon 6. The "standard" RS seems to have appeared in 1943. Strangely, to me, the upgraded RS fittings began much earlier with the RJT RS gunto in 1941 (to be shown soon). 7. It has been said that late-war RS blades were tempered but had no hamon. I don't have enough examples for a judgement, but those on file mostly show faint suguha hamon, but are obscured by use and abuse and poor polish. That's a lot to digest. I still have to examine Saka stamped blades and RJT blades. Keep in mind that these are just Seki area & Nagoya Army Arsenal blades with stamps. There is a need to survey RS gunto with un-stamped blades. These likely hold blades made for the Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal. But I do not track those. I could use help doing NMB searches for those gunto. Chart so far: Survey of WWII Rinji Seishiki Swords Showa Stamped – 424 (345 no date) Year Smith Hamon Saya Style Color 1940 NONE 1941 NONE 1942 NONE No Date NONE Seki Stamped – 473 (348 no date) Year Size Seki Smith Hamon Saya Style Shade 1940 NONE 1941 NONE 1942 NONE 1943 Small Akitoshi Not shown Not shown Not shown Small Kaneyoshi Suguha Standard Light Tan Small Kazunori Suguha Standard Medium Brown Small Kikuhide Suguha Standard Light Tan (Pinkish) 1944 Small Nobumitsu Suguha Standard Medium Brown Jan Small Kanenori Suguha Standard Medium Brown Mar Small Yoshichika Suguha Standard Dark Brown May Small Yoshimune Not Shown Not Shown Sep Small Masanori Suguha Standard Dark Brown Nov Small Kanemichi Suguha Standard Medium Brown Nov Small Nobumitsu Suguha Standard Medium Brown Nov Small Toshiharu Suguha Standard Dark Brown Dec Small Kanemune Suguha Standard Medium Brown Dec Small Nobumitsu Not shown Standard Medium Brown 1945 Jan Small Katsumasa Suguha Standard Medium Brown Jan Small Yoshifusa Suguha Standard Medium Brown Feb Small Yoshisada Suguha Standard Light Tan Mar Small Yoshitada Not Shown Not Shown May Small Yoshitada Suguha Standard Medium Brown Small Kanenori Not Shown Not Shown Small Yoshitada Suguhas Standard Light Tan Na Stamped - 144 (4 no date) 1940 NONE 1941 NONE 1942 NONE 1943 Jan Kaneyoshi Suguha Standard Light Tan Aug Kunitada Not Shown Not Shown Oct Katsumasa Suguha Standard Medium Brown Nov Akitoshi Not Shown Not Shown Nov Hiromitsu Suguha, maybe Standard Dark Brown Dec Daido Suguha Standard Medium Brown Dec Kazunori Suguha Standard Medium Brown 1944 Jan Kanenori Suguha Standard Light Tan Jan Kanenori Suguha Standard Medium Brown Jan Kanemune Not Shown Not Shown Feb Kanesada Not Shown Not Shown Mar Hiromitsu Suguha Standard Dark Brown Mar Kanemune Suguha Standard Light Tan Mar Kanesada Suguha, maybe Standard Light Tan Mar Yoshichika Suguha, maybe Standard Medium Brown May Katsumasa Suguha Standard Light Tan May Yoshichika Not Shown Standard Dark Brown 1945 NONE No Date NONE 1 2 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 30 Report Posted October 30 I finished examining the Saka and Star stamped files On the two questions: 1. Was there a pattern of hamon changes over time - Not that I could see. Yes, toward the end of the war, the hamon was harder to see, but I believe it was still there. Why the late war blades tended to be in worse condition making it harder to see, I can not say. 2. The "standard" steel, light tan saya - They don't seem to have shown up until 1943. The RJT seem to adopted their own version - a medium tan, steel saya with 2 buttons in Feb 1943, and then really took off in 1944-1945. RS in general, are seen as early as May 1942 with RJT blades, custom fittings, 2 buttons. So the quality RS fittings are actually seen a year earlier that the cheaper, no frills RS called for in the original design concept! Black RS saya started showing up in 1943. I documented a couple that even were in late war quality fittings, but there were more than I noted (exhaustion has set in, sorry), two with only one button. Saka Stamped Blades [Note: Not charting when saya not shown] 1944 No Date Nagamitsu Not Shown Custom, 2 button Medium Brown N.D. Nagamitsu Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown N.D. Nagamitsu Wavy Custom, 2 button Dark Brown N.D. Nagamitsu Wavy Custom, 2 button Black N.D. Nagamitsu Wavy Custom, 2 button Dark Brown N.D. Nagamitsu Suguha Custom, 2 button Black N.D. Nagamitsu Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Star Stamped Blades [Note: Not charting when saya not shown] [“Standard” denotes steel saya and Tan color] 1941 NONE 1942 May Akiyoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Oct Akiyoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Dec Nobutake Not Shown Custom, N.S. Dark Brown 1943 Jan Akihisa Suguha Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Jan Kaneyoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Feb Chikafusa Suguha Custom, ? button Medium Brown Feb Tsugukiyo Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Feb Tsugunobu Not shown Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Mar Kiyokatsu Wavy Custom, 2 button Lt Brown Mar Nagamitsu Suguha? Custom, 2 button Black Mar Tsuguhiro Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Spring Sukenobu Suguha Custom, 2 button Dark Brown Apr Kanehisa Suguha Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Apr Mitsuhiro Suguha Custom, 2 button Medium Brown May Nobutake Suguha Custom, 2 button Medium Brown May Sadakiyo Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Jun Chikafusa Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Jun Hirotoshi Wavy Custom, ? Medium Brown Jun Nagatoshi Not Shown Custom, 2 button Black Jun Nobutake Wavy Custom, 2 button Dark Brown Jun Sadakatsu Not shown Custom, ? Black Jul Munetoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Aug Akimitsu Wavy Custom, ? Medium Brown Aug Akinori Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Aug Kanehide Wavy Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Aug Zuiho Wavy Custom, 2 button Dark Brown Aug Zuiho Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Autumn Katsukiyo Wavy Custom, 2 button Dark Brown Sep Masanaga Suguha Custom, 2 button Dark Brown 1943 Zuiho Suguha Custom, 2 button Black 1944 Jan Akiyuki Wavy Custom, ? Dark Brown Feb Kaneoto Suguha Custom, 2 button Black Feb Sadaroku Wavy Custom, 1 button Black Feb Sukenobu Wavy Custom?, 2 button Black, late war Feb Zuiho Suguha Custom, ? Black Mar Kaneoto Suguha Custom, 2 button Black Mar Kazunori Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Mar Masanaga Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Mar Masashige Suguha Custom, 2 button Dark Brown May Kiyokane Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan May Masatomo Wavy Custom, 2 button Black May Masatsugu Wavy Custom, 1 button Black Late war May Masayoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Jun Kanehide Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Jun Kanetoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Jun Masakuni Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Jul Kaneshige Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Jul Kanetoshi Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Jul Tomonari Suguha Custom, 2 button Medium Brown Aug Hidemine Suguha Custom, 2 button Dark Brown Aug Kanehide Suguha Standard, ? Black Aug Kanemitsu Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Aug Kanemoto Suguha Custom, 2 button Black Aug Kanemoto Suguha Custom, ? Black Aug Masamichi Suguha Standard, 2 button Dark Tan Aug Sadashige Not shown Custom, 2 button Black Sep Mitsunobu Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Sep Sukenobu Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Oct Kanefuji Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Oct Masaharu Not shown Custom, 2 button Light Brown Oct Masayoshi Wavy Custom, 2 button Dark Brown Oct Sadashige Suguha Custom, ? Black Dec Mitsunobu Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan 1944 Kanemitsu Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan 1944 Masashige Suguha Custom, ? Black 1945 Jan Akitomi Wavy Custom, 2 button Black Jan Kanetomo Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Feb Kanehisa Wavy Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Feb Kanetomo Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Feb Kanetoshi Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan Feb Mitsunobu Wavy Custiom 1 button Black Mid Spring Kanetomo Suguha Standard, 2 button Medium Tan 1 1 Quote
John C Posted November 4 Report Posted November 4 @Bruce Pennington Bruce: Not sure if you have this already or can use it, but thought I would post it anyway for others as well. This pic is from Modern Swordsmiths (Kapp). My understanding is that the lower grade tamahagane was for core steel and the higher grade was for the edge (outer skin). But I'm sure I'll get corrected on that! John C. 2 Quote
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